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I think it was RussK who seemed to be the only one who felt I should have accepted my brother's judgement without justification. He also seems to be the only one think menn and women cannot, "in some cases", be just friends.

I didn't say that at all, except for the last sentence, but that quote is not my words. If anything should be taken away from my posts on this thread, it would be that I would have given your brother more benefit of the doubt. I also said that I lack much of the context of this whole situation. That point was added to inform you that all of my conclusions were made using very little information relevant to this case, and much of it being simple advice for you to take away, if you chose, because you had more of a complete context; and I also warned that your brother will have stronger knowledge about his girlfriend.

It boggles my mind to think that an Objectivist would, in ANY context, put forth such statements.

Yes, it would be mind boggling; however, you've misunderstood and read too much into my statements.

This is not an attack on YOU, Russ!! As a matter of fact, I would very much like to hear more on this from you. I can't seem to grasp my brother's stance on this, and you are the only one to even come close to backing it, so....

If anything, I'm sympathetic toward your brothers position, but that's a very big if. Like I already said, I've got little idea what's going on here except for the information you've provided. The advice I gave came from personal experience, and what my own expectations would be in this situation. I would also like to point out something that was made very early on in this thread: much of the things discussed have little to do with Objectivism. Of course, accepting your brother's judgment without justification deals much with principles like independence, etc... However, that's one of the few topics I notice related to Objectivism, and much everything else isn't very related without trying to reach for connections.

Edited by RussK
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Men and women cannot just be friends? What does that mean? A male and a female cannot co-exist in the same space without copulating or otherwise becoming romantically or sexually involved? That sounds incredibly deterministic, if not an outright rejection of the human rational faculty to choose how to involve themselves with the other individual.

Indeed.

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You would probably have to write off a lot of people in your life if you chose to do that in every case of such manipulation. It's such a common thing. Of course, this would not be good to just rid yourself of everyone. However, you could have pointed this out to the girlfriend and told her your disappointments, etc...

When the manipulation became evident, I told there there would be no more contact until the issues between she and my brother were resolved one way or the other. My brother's issue is that I had any contact with her AT ALL.

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I didn't say that at all, except for the last sentence, but that quote is not my words. If anything should be taken away from my posts on this thread, it would be that I would have given your brother more benefit of the doubt. I also said that I lack much of the context of this whole situation. That point was added to inform you that all of my conclusions were made using very little information relevant to this case, and much of it being simple advice for you to take away, if you chose, because you had more of a complete context; and I also warned that your brother will have stronger knowledge about his girlfriend.

Yes, it would be mind boggling; however, you've misunderstood and read too much into my statements.

If anything, I'm sympathetic toward your brothers position, but that's a very big if. Like I already said, I've got little idea what's going on here except for the information you've provided. The advice I gave came from personal experience, and what my own expectations would be in this situation. I would also like to point out something that was made very early on in this thread: much of the things discussed have little to do with Objectivism. Of course, accepting your brother's judgment without justification deals much with principles like independence, etc... However, that's one of the few topics I notice related to Objectivism, and much everything else isn't very related without trying to reach for connections.

The only connection with Objectivism here is that my brother claims no Objectivist would ever agree with me. He suggested a forum like this would be a way to "see my folly", as it were. My words, not his. He will no longer discuss anything with me because every Objectivist he has spoken with about it agrees with his. All 2 or 3 of them. Therefore I am here to find a rational, objective view of either support for him that might convince me, or a rational, objective view(other than my own) of support for me that may convince him.

Again, Russ, I appreciate your input and I apologize for misquoting you.

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Men and women cannot just be friends? What does that mean? A male and a female cannot co-exist in the same space without copulating or otherwise becoming romantically or sexually involved? That sounds incredibly deterministic, if not an outright rejection of the human rational faculty to choose how to involve themselves with the other individual.

It's an outright assault on reason, is it not?

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The only connection with Objectivism here is that my brother claims no Objectivist would ever agree with me. He suggested a forum like this would be a way to "see my folly", as it were. My words, not his. He will no longer discuss anything with me because every Objectivist he has spoken with about it agrees with his. All 2 or 3 of them. Therefore I am here to find a rational, objective view of either support for him that might convince me, or a rational, objective view(other than my own) of support for me that may convince him.

Again, Russ, I appreciate your input and I apologize for misquoting you.

That "other Objectivists" agree or disagree is irrelevant. This is not a democracy. His argument is an appeal to authority.

He is again attempting to undercut your judgment. Why are you accepting these "arguments" from him or anybody? Further, he is scrambling to come up with as many "arguments" about your failings as he can. This is not about the girl. It is about you and your willingness to accept whatever he wants without argument, without your judgment. It is not good for you to accept his program as reasonable.

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That "other Objectivists" agree or disagree is irrelevant. This is not a democracy. His argument is an appeal to authority.

He is again attempting to undercut your judgment. Why are you accepting these "arguments" from him or anybody? Further, he is scrambling to come up with as many "arguments" about your failings as he can. This is not about the girl. It is about you and your willingness to accept whatever he wants without argument, without your judgment. It is not good for you to accept his program as reasonable.

His "program"?

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His "program"?

Wasn't the best word choice, admittedly. He does seem to have a overall theme: do what he wants you to do and suspend your judgment and use his, or a majority of Objectivists, or whomever he picks next. You could call that a program, possibly. But he does show a strong emotion connected with your decisions, both what they are and that you made them yourself.

Edited by Bob G
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Your brother was being silly when he said you shouldn't have invited her to use your computer. He's not your dad, it's not his house, and not his computer. If he thinks you're sleeping with his girlfriend he should ask you, not sit around worrying about "Semblances of impropriety."

Your brother and his girlfriend were both being abusive and manipulative to you when they came to tell you about all the bad things the other had done. You are not in their relationship, you can't really know the context of their relationship, and any attempt to involve you in a fight is just petty, abusive, and irrational. The minute that either of them tried to get you on one's side, you should've said you're not getting involved, and you're not going to talk to either of them until they decide to grow up and act like adults.

The rest of the problems after this just stem from handling this situation wrong. They were both being childish, and you responded by acting similarly childish. You should've told them both that they're going to have to resolve their arguments away from you.

As far as this post, and the current discussion with your brother: You've already lost this one. You accepted his argument from authority, that it makes any sense whatsoever for him to say 'find an Objectivist who agrees with you.' It's just more irrational, petty behavior intended to involve other people in something -they have no way of knowing the full context of-.

Your brother also mentioned his discontent with the medium because it's out of context and various other reasons. This means you can sit here all day and get every single person on the forum to completely agree with you, and your brother will still write it off as just the problem with how you posted to us anyway.

If you want to repair your relationship with your brother, meet him in person, apologize for being immature, tell him that even though you still don't feel you have enough damning evidence to cut off the girl, you did, and do love him and did not mean to insinuate that you chose her over him. You should tell him that you think he was being irrational to say 'just take my word for it' and that the both of them were being irrational with their argument and their game-playing. Tell him that even if he disagrees with that judgement you want to continue to have a relationship with him because you love him too much to lose him over something silly like this.

As far as the girl goes, if she's not in contact with you, it would seem she's done with you. I would not make attempts to find her or communicate with her unless it's through your brother.

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