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Audio: Avoiding the Wrong Women

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Here's an excerpt from a Webinar I hosted recently, about things that men need to understand about romance & relationships.

In this segment, I talk about how a man can identify women who aren't worth pursuing, and name the most important characteristic that a man must observe in a potential romantic partner:

http://youtu.be/XB-7DgsiqNg

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I think it's important to learn the art of ending.

Is she already taken? Adress the issue.

Like with a girl I met at a conference the other day. We hit it off right away, but she was wearing a ring: "You know, that ring really bothers me. If it wasn't for that you would undoubtedly have fallen for my charm and let me seduce you. Now all I can do is kick your ass in a game of darts".

Put it anyway you want, but when the issue is adressed it's out there. She knows what's up with you and may decide for herself what to do about it. Most likely you get a "thanks, you're a good guy but...". In rare events she may reconsider who she wants. Either way, you'll get a much better idea of where you stand.

A lot of trouble can be avoided if guys just adressed such issues directly. Instead they avoid it and keep hoping.

She doesn't like to return your calls? Cancels on dates? Is just too darn busy to have time with you?

Tell her what you want and make it clear you're moving on if she can't give it to you. Either she reconsiders or it's over. Simple as that. Instead a lot of guys are thinking "wonder if she likes me" or "maybe she's just playing hard to get". Whatever. Put an end to it and you'll know.

As far as bad attitudes go... run in the opposite direction.

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Is she already taken? Adress the issue.

Put it anyway you want, but when the issue is adressed it's out there.

A lot of trouble can be avoided if guys just adressed such issues directly.

The fact that a woman is in a committed relationship does not constitute an "issue." At least it shouldn't: it only becomes an issue when a man tries to pursue something that's hopeless.

A related term men use is situation; "Here's my situation: I'm madly in love with a woman, who wants nothing to do with me. What should I do?"

What she should do is stop calling his situation a "situation." There is no "situation," only an unfortunate guy pining for something he'll almost certainly never have.

She doesn't like to return your calls? Cancels on dates? Is just too darn busy to have time with you?

A useful question to ask yourself is: It it even remotely conceivable that this lady would tell Ben Affleck that she is "too busy" to go out with him? Would she fail to return his calls? Cancel a date with him?

In my book, these are all sure signs that a woman is NOT interested in you — certainly not enough to mark the beginning of a beautiful love affair. I wouldn't even bother with an ultimatum, I'd cut my losses and move on.

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Here's an excerpt from a Webinar I hosted recently, about things that men need to understand about romance & relationships.

In this segment, I talk about how a man can identify women who aren't worth pursuing, and name the most important characteristic that a man must observe in a potential romantic partner:

http://youtu.be/XB-7DgsiqNg

This man has just eliminated almost every women on the planet from you asking them on a date. He says you can't change people and show them how wonderful life is; apparently, he hasn't read Atlas Shrugged. Of course you can. He just doesn't know how to.

Philosophy is often about changing people. He doesn't get it.

Go for it. Communicate. Never underestimate the power of Reason to change people, and women are people. Just ask Ayn Rand. This guy doesn't know all of his stuff.

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This man has just eliminated almost every women on the planet from you asking them on a date.

You're overstating, but what I advocate does eliminate a lot of women. It also eliminates a lot of heartache, unnecessary stress, pain, disappointment and wasted time, and allows you to identify women you might actually have a shot with much more easily.

Never underestimate the power of Reason to change people, and women are people.

I find it fascinating, those who are in favor of the idea of fixing or changing a romantic partner, are always the ones who intend to do the fixing and changing, never the ones who are to be fixed and/or changed.

This is unfortunately a real syndrome for many Objectivists.

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The fact that a woman is in a committed relationship does not constitute an "issue." At least it shouldn't: it only becomes an issue when a man tries to pursue something that's hopeless.

A related term men use is situation; "Here's my situation: I'm madly in love with a woman, who wants nothing to do with me. What should I do?"

What she should do is stop calling his situation a "situation." There is no "situation," only an unfortunate guy pining for something he'll almost certainly never have.

You don't KNOW it's hopeless or something you'll never have. And that's one reason to bring it up and to adress the issue. That way you can quickly find out if it's a hopeless pursuit. Another reason could be that showing where you stand can make dealings with the other person easier.

I say that last part because a lot of guys make the mistake of trying to befriend the woman they're romantically interested in, which can damage both the friendship and any romantic pursuit.

What i'm trying to say is that it's best to simply make things very clear. After that, you can choose the best way to act.

Many times it will be clear that it really is a hopeless pursuit. In fact, under most circumstances - when you're not really invested - it's best to forget about it right away(after all, if the woman you just met tells you she's already taken, I can't find a good reason to pursue her).

There are exceptions, however. And in such cases, just make it clear what you want and see where it leads you. Prepare to get rejected, but... in rare cases, like a friend of mine, you may end up getting married.

But, whatever you do, get there quickly. Don't waste time hopelessly dreaming of a woman you can't have. It's either yes or no.

I'd like to add that this attitude has helped a lot in my relationships with women. And not just when I have shown romantic interest, but also friendship. When you adress topics like that it makes you easier to trust, and you give them the oppurtunity to set their own boundaries.

A useful question to ask yourself is: It it even remotely conceivable that this lady would tell Ben Affleck that she is "too busy" to go out with him? Would she fail to return his calls? Cancel a date with him?

In my book, these are all sure signs that a woman is NOT interested in you — certainly not enough to mark the beginning of a beautiful love affair. I wouldn't even bother with an ultimatum, I'd cut my losses and move on.

I don't think so, but it's not really important what the ladies tell Ben Affleck. You CAN get things to work even if she's not that interested in the beginning.

I'm not suggesting you should keep calling her forever or just hope that sooner or later she'll show up on a date. That's foolish and never works. All i'm saying is to get closure. Quickly.

A while back I dated a girl who confessed that the only reason she returned my phone call was to apologize and let me off the hook(and no, I did not call her a dozen times - just once). However, when she called I was just my irresistably charming self, so she changed her mind. We dated for quite a while, until I dumped her.

I don't care that much what she thinks of me - if i'm a Ben Affleck or the hunchback of notre dame. If I like her, I like to pursue her until I get rejected. And I try to make sure not to waste time. Plain and simple.

Of course, as always, it needs to be put into context. If I just got her number I won't waste time calling her twice. Otherwise she might get a second chance to make up her mind.

Edited by Alfa
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Regarding trying to change someone... why? Why are you with that person in the first place?

The way I see it, you either accept her as she is - warts and all - or you don't. You may grow together, or not. I see no trying to change the other person. I'm looking for someone I can love, not someone I can change until I love her.

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You don't KNOW it's hopeless or something you'll never have.

You can know in principle that pursuing a woman who is in a relationship with another man is a losing proposition.

You do not want to be with a woman who would leave a man to be with you. If she is having difficulties with her current boyfriend or husband, she needs to address the problems and try to work it out, or end it and move on.

If she decides to end it, it should be because that relationship wasn't satisfying to her, not because she met someone she likes better.

Breaking up, and beginning a new relationship, are two totally separate transactions. Do you notice how common the phenomenon of "trading up" is today? This is when a woman hangs on to a guy she's not that interested in, even as she starts something with a different man on the side. Then she eventually breaks it off with the first guy, and the next hour or day, she has a new boyfriend.

Women like this are toxic poison, and should never be dealt with in any manner, under any circumstances.

If I like her, I like to pursue her until I get rejected.

Women generally hate to reject a man outright. It feels rude, plus they have this weird idea that it hurts our feelings.

All of the things you mentioned before — too busy, unreturned calls, broken dates — are indirect rejections, and need to be regarded as such.

Romance is an enormous value in the life of a woman. If she is single and sane, and believes that you might be her future Superman (or her Ben Affleck), she will move heaven and earth to make it happen. She won't make excuses.

Edited by Kevin Delaney
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What say ye about Dagny leaving Rearden upon meeting Galt? :stuart:

You should ask me what I think of Dominique's actions in The Fountainhead, and whether I think a man ought to pursue a woman who actively works to destroy him.

Happily, there is a difference between art and real life, and what works magnificently in one often fails in the other, and vice versa.

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Well then, so you either would not approve of somebody doing what Dagny did in real life (there is a case in The Fountainhead where I can see why something would work in the book, but not in real life, but the reason that applies there doesn't apply here) or you do not believe such a situation (or one with relevant similarities at least) is possible in real life. Alright, I'll proceed then. I really wish I could come up with a shorter version of this next thing . . .

(True) story time again. When I was 18 I got into my first romantic relationship under unusual circumstances which meant I kind of had to rush into things more than I would have chosen to do otherwise. Things went pretty darn well for a couple years, though there were some spots of lingering conflict that we hoped to work out eventually. Somewhere between two and three years into things, a HUGE unexpected problem came up. We almost broke up quite a few times (me being the one almost getting dumped in all these cases, I was a wreck about that) while trying to sort the problem out. Something else came up after a few months which rendered that initial problem pretty much a non-issue anymore, though not for positive reasons. While the problem was going on and we were trying to work things out I learned some things I had never expected about and never heard about from my mate. This meant that while the first crisis was done, now there were new problems left. We kept trying to work it out because we did care about each other a lot, but things got pretty stuck in the mud before long. A couple years of this kind of situation went on. Eventually it got to where doing things to try to sort things out not only were getting nowhere fast, they were making me start to dread talking to my mate because every time we did it involved these stressful, fruitless topics. At this point I might have decided to try just being friends, but one of the unexpected things I found out during the initial problem was that the person I was with never kept in contact with people after breakups because he didn't think he could get over the breakup otherwise. The prospect of entirely losing him was awful so I was very hesitant to give up resolving our conflicts. I couldn't even try calling it quits just to release some of the pressure of the situation and see if maybe under calmer circumstances and getting back to just having a good time being around each other if things could eventually work out since a break up was a break up as far as he was concerned and he would have to take the same cutting off contact route as he always did no matter why we broke up. He had moved across the country a little while back for various reasons, but eventually came back to my area once for a few days while he was getting some of the stuff he had left behind. I got surprised by something coming up which made him tell me I either had to pack up and go live with him across the country when he was leaving the next day or that we were going to break up and I'd not hear from him anymore. I couldn't pick up and leave, didn't think I could handle moving in across the country with him under present conditions, so he took that as defaulting to us breaking up. I was very upset that night. Within the next couple days though I started feeling relieved and found out I could handle this break up and loss much better than I expected I would. Then a little more than a week later he called me back to try again because he was worried about how I might be doing. I wasn't doing that badly really, but I didn't have the heart to tell him he had been worried for nothing and I agreed to go back to where we left off before pretty much, still hoping to salvage this thing. At this point he had decided that the best bet of resolving our issues was something which would require a few years to do aaaaand it still was not looking so promising that even that would succeed. A couple months later I met somebody I was attracted to and who was mutually attracted to me. I had not met anybody I was attracted to in about five years, since I met the guy I was already in a relationship with. Honestly, I thought for quite a while I was just busted and had ceased to be capable of attraction to anybody over the course of this whole ordeal, that the person I was with already was the best and maybe only possible compatibility for me still romantically even if it was still much less than ideal. So, yeah, I wasn't broken, but it really is VERY rare evidently that I find people I'm attracted to. This was a big deal and proved a couple ideas about my situation wrong. I told this new person though that I was already involved with somebody, not on the market basically, intent on working things out with who I was with. We accepted just being friends consequently. However, I really, really, really liked this new person and things were quite crappy with my current mate with no hope of improving any time soon if ever and I had found out earlier that I was capable of handling having him leave me better than I used to think. Buuuut . . . the idea of losing who I was with was still not pleasant at all and I knew I would feel like shit if I dumped him at this point after he had committed to doing such a long term effort to try to work things out with me and had come back to try to try again out of concern for my well-being. So, about a week went by where me and this new person were being friends because I was unavailable. But then I had a thought . . . A couple years back there had been a situation reminiscent of this where somebody I was attracted to and cared about very much (I had met this person shortly before who I started dating when I was 18, but anything romantic hadn't looked like an option for us at the time) I had just been friends with while I was hoping to resolve some of those areas of conflict which had been there from the time I had started dating my boyfriend and things with my boyfriend just went on and on, not getting any nearer to resolved and meanwhile the friend of mine took quite a hit to his mental health dealing with this waiting and uncertainty between us. The stress on my friend was just downright awful (and I was very upset he was being hurt by this too). When this occured to me I just knew I couldn't let something like that happen again, especially given that in the last case my friend had been very mentally resilient to start with, but my current friend had much more stress on his plate already to begin with. So, because I couldn't let myself let such a thing happen again, that gave me enough extra will power to bite the bullet and go through with breaking up with my boyfriend. So, once that was done, there was no reason left to not begin a relationship with this new person.

So, am I "toxic poison?" Should I "never be dealt with in any manner, under any circumstances?" :P Just having been using somebody as a place holder is not the only reason somebody may dump one person and right away start dating another. As for trying to fix any problems with a current partner rather than leaving for somebody you like more, at what point does this effort become futile or is there a point you'd think where such efforts have a higher sort of cost to benefit ratio than just moving on to other people? As far as a situation where one wasn't having problems in their current relationship but just met somebody else they were even more drawn to like things were with Dagny, what do you think makes it ok in fiction, but never in real life?

"Women generally hate to reject a man outright. It feels rude, plus they have this weird idea that it hurts our feelings."

This on the other hand I'm not going to object to. If by "generally" you mean "more women than not" I think that's a pretty correct statement. I do know for darned sure though though that there are people who will get their feelings hurt by frank rejection. I think the "not answering you back" one is more common than if you hear her tell you she can't make it to something. Sometimes stuff really does come up even when you are VERY interested in somebody and then it is really stressful to think that the other person may leave because they took you not being able to do something as saying you wanted to get rid of them. Also, sometimes technology glitches or you forget to check phone/mail/whatever, so a second attempt via different communication means may not be a bad idea, particularly if they have spoken to you before, buuut if that fails then it's probably best to quit trying unless they do eventually seek you out again.

Now, as for what Darrell Cody was saying, People certainly can change and if they are rational then reason definitely can help with that and that can be great and all, BUT no matter what it isn't a guaranteed thing that they will change in any particular way (learned that one the hard way, seriously thought I had every reason to believe my first boyfriend and I would come to see eye to eye on certain things eventually), so just don't go getting into a relationship with somebody if you can't accept something about them as potentially there for the long haul. It's a recipie for conflict and heart ache otherwise. :( If you would need something about somebody to change, you can try to talk with them about something, maybe you'll succeed, but don't get into a relationship until and unless that happens first.

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I don't know about you guys, but stories like that make me appreciate my relationship 10 fold.

...and had come back to try to try again out of concern for my well-being.

And the moral of the story is: don't stay in a relationship with someone just because you're worried about her (ie: "how will she survive without me?!!") Don't worry, she'll move on.

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*sigh* My questions got lost it seems and just the anecdote got attention. I even tried to put it in smaller text in hopes to emphasize that the story wasn't the main point of the post, just there to serve the rest of the post. I wasn't even being prickly here so far either, so I really hoped my questions would be answered (though the "toxic" and "never dealt with" ones were half joking because what I really wanted to get at was if the situation I posted could be accepted as a valid example of a case that lead to the same result being condemned, but for causes other than the ones that had been given before which were why the result was being condemned.)

The "simplicity" thing was moot to my situation anyway. If I'm guessing correctly (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), you are implying that I made some kind of crazy accusation or something like that. Wasn't the case though, I was the accused, not the accuser.

Also, worry about me wasn't the sole reason to try the relationship again, it was just what gave sufficient cause, it may have fallen a little short of enough motive otherwise. He really missed me a hell of a lot and did care a lot for me too. When I broke up with him the second time he wasn't relieved like, "Ok, I guess she'll be alright after all," he was really upset and tried very hard to get me to change my mind about breaking up when I told him that I was doing so. Really, it ended up much more the other way around, he didn't handle the break up well at all, still a mess last I heard earlier this year. Hopefully things have improved since then.

The point though, can any other situation than just treating a guy like a place holder be responsible for breaking up with one person and starting a relationship with another very soon afterward? What is it about being fictional that made Dagny's actions fine when it is being said that in real life it would not be ok?

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bluecherry: Your story is mind-destroyingly convoluted and strange. I defy any man to read the entire thing without feeling a migraine coming on. (And remember, guys, this is the abridged version!)

Good, healthy romantic love relationships are not fraught with drama, weirdness, mixed messages, confusion, complexity, ambivalence and ambiguity. Good, healthy love relationships are simple. They are straightforward, happy, mutually exciting and enjoyable affairs.

Keeping romance simple is primarily a man's responsibility. The kindest thing you could say about the fellow depicted in bluecherry's story, is that he's severely lacking in CEO skills. He doesn't know what he wants. He's all over the place. He blows hot and cold. He's effeminate, in the sense that he is not a pillar of certainty, solidity, definiteness and strength.

He's also extremely typical of men today.

A man of this kind can never be experienced by a woman as her protector. He's like a child, and he makes any woman he's with feel like an overworked nanny.

For your sake and hers, guys, keep your romantic life straightforward and simple.

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No kidding it was a complicated thing. You don't need to tell me that, I lived it. Believe me, it hurt my head often too going through it. The thing is though, none of that seems to have anything to do with what you actually have ever talked about in what your thread on simplicity before. The thread's simplicity was about trying to dodge frustrating stuff a woman threw at a man just to try to "test" what he would do. Our problem, again, started with me getting accusations heaped on me, not vice versa. Also, I now and then fully recognized that we were having problems in our relationship once that initial problem hit, we didn't want things to be this messy, we were trying to fix things to work it out, get past it, and go back to "straightforward, happy, mutually exciting and enjoyable affairs" like it had been before for a couple years. It was when getting back to that kind of state got to looking pretty darn unfeasible after much effort and time on trying to repair things that I finally gave up and went for where it looked like I could have such a thing. I'm not saying it's good for a relationship to have "drama, weirdness, mixed messages, confusion, complexity, ambivalence and ambiguity" - not at all, it is a miserable thing when that happens, the problem is your writing about simplicity didn't seem to be simply about "confusing relationships are unhappy relationships" and I don't know what exactly telling anybody to "keep it simple" would have solved or prevented in the situation with my previous boyfriend since we were already trying not to get into such a state and were trying to get back out again once we were in it. We just couldn't seem to figure out a way to do that anymore, who we each were was conflicting to prevent resolving things.

"He doesn't know what he wants." <-- Actually, that wasn't the case at all unless you maybe want to argue it applied when he split up with me the first time and then called me back again. He definitely knew what he wanted. The problem was mostly that I had no inkling that he wanted certain things for years, it never even occured to either of us that there were these certain things where we may have different views on. We knew we wanted certain things, we just didn't realize for a long time that there was an alternative and that our partner may want it. Problems started largely when we started to find these areas where we both strongly wanted and viewed some things in conflicting ways.

"A man of this kind can never be experienced by a woman as her protector. He's like a child, and he makes any woman he's with feel like an overworked nanny."

Actually, that's completely the opposite of how things were. He was very protective of me and capable of making up his own mind and taking care of himself. The problem wasn't anything about me needing to do "all the work" in any sense of the phrase, we both put work into the relationship and our general lives and knew what we wanted. The problem wasn't about him lacking something in who he was, it was that what he did have came into conflict with what I had.

But, seriously, what about the Dagny thing and do you still think there can be no legitimate reason for somebody to end one relationship and pick another up right away? The only reason I wrote all that in small text about my own experience was to try to show a case where one person was dumped and another started a relationship with right away and it wasn't about just keeping one guy around who was only mildly interesting until somebody more interesting could be found. I had conflicts with that guy I was with at the time, but my interest in him was definitely well beyond mild and I really thought for a long time I would never break up with him, didn't want to ever have such happen.

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Remember, guys: A woman's job is to complicate matters and confuse you.

The only thing of any relevance from what bluecherry has written here, is that the relationship crashed, burned and failed. It caused misery and pain for both participants.

To reiterate:

[H]e didn't handle the break up well at all, still a mess last I heard earlier this year.

If there's one thing a man cannot ever afford to become, it's a mess. Keep your romantic life simple, always.

Edited by Kevin Delaney
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"A woman's job is to complicate matters and confuse you."

I made no effort to do such, tried to undo complication and confusion and was myself often the one confused.

Additionally, this is still highly relevant --> "I don't know what exactly telling anybody to 'keep it simple' would have solved or prevented in the situation with my previous boyfriend since we were already trying not to get into such a state and were trying to get back out again once we were in it."

And this "But, seriously, what about the Dagny thing and do you still think there can be no legitimate reason for somebody to end one relationship and pick another up right away?"

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You can know in principle that pursuing a woman who is in a relationship with another man is a losing proposition.

You do not want to be with a woman who would leave a man to be with you. If she is having difficulties with her current boyfriend or husband, she needs to address the problems and try to work it out, or end it and move on.

If she decides to end it, it should be because that relationship wasn't satisfying to her, not because she met someone she likes better.

Breaking up, and beginning a new relationship, are two totally separate transactions. Do you notice how common the phenomenon of "trading up" is today? This is when a woman hangs on to a guy she's not that interested in, even as she starts something with a different man on the side. Then she eventually breaks it off with the first guy, and the next hour or day, she has a new boyfriend.

Women like this are toxic poison, and should never be dealt with in any manner, under any circumstances.

It's a generalization, which holds true in most cases. My point is to leave room for the exceptions as well

Dagny is a good example. She's in a relationship she knows wont last forever. She then meets John Galt, spends time with him, and falls for him. When she gets back she sorts things out with Rearden.

Variations to that theme happen in the real world as well. There's nothing wrong with it and Dagny handled it honestly.

Women generally hate to reject a man outright. It feels rude, plus they have this weird idea that it hurts our feelings.

All of the things you mentioned before — too busy, unreturned calls, broken dates — are indirect rejections, and need to be regarded as such.

Romance is an enormous value in the life of a woman. If she is single and sane, and believes that you might be her future Superman (or her Ben Affleck), she will move heaven and earth to make it happen. She won't make excuses.

If she hates it, I think that's her problem. I think the best thing a man can do is to set the tone, insist on direct communication and make it clear what you want and how you expect to be treated.

It doesn't cost much time or energy. Either you get rejected or she changes her attitude towards you. And quite often, if you handle it well, she'll change completely.

It may be true that romance is an enormous value for a woman(with the risk of sounding bitter it seems a lot of modern women are more interested in playing around). However, there's also an abundance of men who would like to get into her pants. When you first meet someone it's hard to set yourself apart from the others. She may have her doubts, for whatever reasons, or strange little hang-ups. She could, of course, just not be that into you. Or, she could have her walls up and feel abit ambiguous.

You might just not be her Superman, yet.

When you insist on direct communication you can quickly determine if it's a rejection or not.

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I've heard this before. I'm aware. I just only do minimal editing to my posts to try to correct such things because the amount of effort required for me to do a lot of editing costs more than the benefit it gives to me. Were I doing an essay for school or some kind of publication then it would be a different story. In that case the effort to heavily edit is worth it for me and so I do so. Fortunately for you, none of my posts in this thread at least were directed to you though. You can skip my posts if they bug you.

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