Why is communism still considered a noble ideal?

[AmbivalentEye]

I hate how everywhere I go, when the topic of communism arises for whatever reason, someone ALWAYS says:

"Oh, but communism isn't bad. It's horrible in practice, but the theory behind is is actually very great."

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

How can I possibly get it into people's heads that this is wrong?

Isn't this the primary issue? The reason why communism always has a chance of coming back is because there are thousands that still believe it is a very noble idea to make everyone equals and have governments regulating the distribution of goods. Everytime someone says something like this I just want to scream. Most of the people that make these comments are alsoreligious, so they use altruism as an excuse, then suddenly I feel like stabbing a Bible because of it's notion of "Love your neighbor more than yourself".

Someone please help me....

-J

[daniel]

I hate how everywhere I go, when the topic of communism arises for whatever reason, someone ALWAYS says:

"Oh, but communism isn't bad. It's horrible in practice, but the theory behind is is actually very great."

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

How can I possibly get it into people's heads that this is wrong?

Isn't this the primary issue? The reason why communism always has a chance of coming back is because there are thousands that still believe it is a very noble idea to make everyone equals and have governments regulating the distribution of goods. Everytime someone says something like this I just want to scream. Most of the people that make these comments are alsoreligious, so they use altruism as an excuse, then suddenly I feel like stabbing a Bible because of it's notion of "Love your neighbor more than yourself".

Someone please help me....

-J

I hate that too. I usally end up saying something like if it's bad in practice, it's bad in theory. Also make it more relavent to them - tell them under communism they would be held back by some pen pusher. In pure capitalism no one holds a man back but himself. Also why do they want to have the same standard of living as a lazy person? Since many are obsessed with equalty I mention equality of opportunity.

[tommyedison]

How can I possibly get it into people's heads that this is wrong?

You don't need to. If people want to fool or lie to themselves, let them. If 74 years of manslaughter and failure can't convince them, I doubt you have a chance. Communism is a violation of man's rights. If they still say its good in theory, either they are horribly misguided or they are liars. You don't need to go to each and every such person trying to convince them that Communism is evil. It's better that in that time you work towards your own life.

Edit: That should be 88 years since persecution in China, NK, Cuba, and many other countries still continues.

Edited September 4, 2005 by tommyedison

[softwareNerd]

But... that was the only way it could be practiced. Think about it: the suggestion is to take from those of ability and give to those who need. Well, who decides who needs what? And who forces those of ability to part with their stuff?

Communism requires the presence of a bully: a tough-guy who will take wealth and redistribute it. It is the only way the theory can be practiced.

Any further objection turns into an epistemological point, which would be worthless to discuss with most people, but you could try it with someone who takes ideas seriously: a theory cannot be good if the only way to practice it is evil.

[Prometheus98876]

Im going to agree with tommyedison and softwarenerd on this one. If someone is not a rational person, and they therefore will not listen to any rational arguments against communism (and there are so many of course) then you should not try. Leave them alone to suffer the consequences of their flawed ideologies, and don't waste your breath talking to someone who does not want to think things through.

Nothing can be right in theory if it is wrong in practise. If it is wrong in practise, then I would think that the theory is obviously wrong as well. A theory of communism that does not predict monstrous unfairness and mass violation of mans most basic rights (property rights) cannot be rationally said to be a theory that is 'right'.

The best way for one to fight Communism, and indeed any fell ideal is too use reason too speak too those whom still have minds left that you can appeal to. Speak to those whom still are able to realise the errors of supporting (or passively supporting) such ideals and try to convince them of the error of their beliefs/ways.

Dont try to talk to the James Taggarts, the weasels that are destroying the world, but do try to reach the honest man, the Eddies of the world, you cannot help the first, but you might just be able to help the latter.

It should be no surprise that many whom support communism are religous, ie particulary perhaps Christian. As you point out, the Bible is full of nonsense trying to get its followers to love someone for no reason, full of attempts to create artificial, causeless love that cannot exist.

As far as I am concerned that is about the worst possible injustice to love someone regardless of their nature or actions, as the bible preaches. It is also injustice to forgive someone regardless of their sins (not that God apparently sticks to this, as the concept suggests.

But then again, communism also requires that its followers view all man (expect themselves) as just as worthy...

In short, just leave those people alone, unless they infringe on your rights. Reason doesn't work on those whom refuse to see it.

[hunterrose]

"Oh, but communism isn't bad. It's horrible in practice, but the theory behind is is actually very great."

How can I possibly get it into people's heads that this is wrong?

Isn't this the primary issue? The reason why communism always has a chance of coming back is because there are thousands that still believe it is a very noble idea to make everyone equals and have governments regulating the distribution of goods.

You might be going about it the wrong way.

Your task isn't to reveal the evil of forced communism government; your task is to reveal the evil of voluntary altruism/collectivism.

So long as people admit forced communism is bad, but voluntary altruism is good, "communism always has a chance of coming back."

You might want to tell people the Twentieth Century Motor Company example from AS and see how they reply.

[FeatherFall]

I have had some experience talking to Communists. If you are actually interested in convincing them, you have to be in it for the long, arduous haul. This is probably not worth it unless you are friends with them or have some time on your hands... And yes, I have some friends who are red as tomatos.

Some communists are christians, some are atheists, some have other beliefs. You will always have to argue that altruism is not the proper role for man. With christians, this will be very difficult. You have to convince them that their savior inverts justice. I actually heard a preacher on a television commercial say something like, "Jesus takes blame for things he hasn't done, so that you can take credit for things you don't deserve." The preacher said it with all sincerity and it was chilling. Basically, you have to contend with people who implicitly deny justice at a fundamental level. It may be easier to convince them that religion is arbitrary.

Otherwise, there are all sorts of economic attacks that you will have to deal with. And they won't come as one integrated whole. They will come as a deluge of separate ideas that are not contextually linked. And it will often come emotionally charged.

I usually only hear, "Communism is a great theory, but doesn't work in practice" from non-communists. To this, I usually point out it is flawed in theory because it is based on the unearned. Again, it enshrines altruism and forces injustice. Most of these people won't take it past the moral argument, if they even take it on at all. Actual communists usually reference Norway as an example that "works."

If you seriously want to try to help the communists to a better theory, it will require identifying all of the reasons one might have for supporting Communism and dealing with them piecemeal. You must also counter them with an integrated argument based on moral grounds, supported with economic evidence. This won't be easy.

There is another approach you might be better off with. Simply express that you support Capitalism moral grounds, and leave it at that. Explain what your grounds are, if you have to, but don't waste your time with Norway or anything else.

Edited September 12, 2005 by FeatherFall

[skap35]

"Oh, but communism isn't bad. It's horrible in practice, but the theory behind is is actually very great."

The theory isn't great. Aside from the obvious response of pointing to all the failed Communist experiments, consider this: The ultimate goal of Communism is world anarchy. The only need for the Communist form of government was only temporary until all nations of the world were under Communist control. Once the proletariat were in complete control, there would be no need for government because everyone would have the exact same goal. Until that happened, however, the government would serve the purpose of protecting the proletariat from whatever "evil" Capitalists still remained in power.

How in the world does it make any sense to build a top-heavy, oppressive government for the goal of having no government??

Once this "altruistic, government for the people" gets power, you think they are just going to give up all that control, just because they reached their goal? Once people have power, they tend not to want to give it up. So ask them how they would account for this. Ask them exactly why the powers that be would actually just give up control simply because the time came.

Not only that, but assuming that it actually came to that, you could point out all the obvious flaws in anarchy, since that is what Communists want. Of course, I also doubt most Communists even know about that little tidbit of their own philosophy because they probably never read the Communist Manifesto. So maybe you could just throw a copy of that at them and see how they react to the garbage within it.

Edited September 12, 2005 by skap35

[Marsh]

The practice of communism is horror, no need for arguments there. I'm not sure what you mean exactly by theory, but I usually phrase it as an idea. The idea of pure communism - the idea of Marx - is not so bad (notice, only the idea).

The idea is equality among men where there would be no material ownership and therefore no class-struggle. As you can see, the idea is good, but totally impracticeable.

[Captain Nate]

The idea is equality among men where there would be no material ownership and therefore no class-struggle. As you can see, the idea is good, but totally impracticeable.

How is an idea in which each individual is not allowed to live for their own lives, but enslaved to work for the benefit of the nebulous notion of society "good"?

[hunterrose]

How is an idea in which each individual is not allowed to live for their own lives, but enslaved to work for the benefit of the nebulous notion of society "good"?

I think he means that the idea of people choosing collectivism (not necessarily the governmental forcing) would be a "good" thing. Like I said, that's the idea that really has to be fought.

[Captain Nate]

I think he means that the idea of people choosing collectivism (not necessarily the governmental forcing) would be a "good" thing. Like I said, that's the idea that really has to be fought.

Just because it is chosen would not make it good. Choosing to act self-destructively is still nothing to be valued.