Are Video Games Art?

So, your implicit definition of art here is “whatever people are willing to buy”?

Not just what people are willing to buy but any creation that anyone values.

The only argument you’ve put forth for whether or not video games can logically be considered art is an emotionalistic appeal that amounts to: I want to produce “art”, I want to produce video games, therefore video games are “art”.

Yeah, it does come off as an emotionalistic appeal. :\ I left out an important point, I was inspired to create video games, art, based on another video game that I consider art. It created an experience that I shared and I know several other people had. It inspired emotion, creativity, and adventure.

I also agree calling a Dolphin a fish is incorrect, but that fails the commonly accepted definition. A is A. The definition of art is vague and general.

Just a few examples:

thefreedictionary.com

dictionary.com

Google

I view interactivity as a tool to entertain the audience before introducing new elements of content and/or story. Just like a writer will use time tested methods, common methods, to capture the attention and entertain his/her readers. I don’t understand how the game side invalidates something as art.

No one has still addressed the following issues:

  • Why videogames cannot, apparently, express a creator’s metaphysical value-judgments

and

  • Why they can’t be considered a recreation of reality

Whether or not there are games that do (or don’t), the fact is, they certainly have the potential to. Despite many of their false “parameters” and fantasy-like elements, many videogames, especially the ones containing plots and characters (be the characters humans, animals, or humanimals) may still have themes and other elements that link it back to reality.

The point is that I don’t think a video game could be considered a work of art until it’s possible to integrate the puzzle elements to the point that they are invisible. Once that is possible or someone figures out to do it, you’ve got the birth of an entirely new art form, an interactive one where you can play a game start to finish and make all kinds of choices yet never spend three hours sitting there going “where is the damn blue key to the third level gate?!” or “I died again, now I have to go back and re-load!” No other art form that involves a story includes lengthy pauses where you go off and kill a bunch of stuff so you can get a level so that now you can wear the big suit of armor and kill a bunch more stuff.

The gameplay, as I’ve already mentioned (i.e… gaining an item) is not so random as many seem to make it out. It’s simply a part of the storytelling. Items don’t appear out of nowhere, and neither do skills, or levels - they have to be earned. What may seem a pointless quest may actually help you reach the end of the game, the point when everything is ultimately tied together.

(As for sidequests and subquests… I’ll admit they may get pointless, distracting, and may ultimately detract from a game’s artistic merit, but they are not inherent elements in a videogame).

That’s not to say it isn’t possible to design a game that would be totally integrated like that, and frankly I’d like to see it. However you also would have to integrate the various gameplay elements because every part of a work of art has to tie back into it.

You say here that it’s POSSIBLE, and isn’t that what our entire discussion is about? To say that videogames cannot be art simply because none have fully and perfectly integrated interaction (though it is possible), is like saying that Rand’s books are worthless because the world is not as perfect as Rand paints it to be in her novels. It IS possible for videogames to be art, even if none have proven themselves to be fully-integrated, completely unified and consistent YET.

What everyone has still failed to answer, without using hypotheticals, is what about the videogame MEDIUM keeps it from being a work of art? It’s thus far proven a great medium for storytelling, plot and character development, theme presentation… I’m not saying it’s been implemented perfectly YET, but there is certainly the potential for it to.

Exactly, but potential is not an actual, and it remains theoretical potential at best. I haven’t encountered any games that jump the bar from movie cum puzzles to being another distinct art form and I doubt anyone else has either. Maybe in the future this will not be the case after the medium continues to grow and develop. Maybe movies and video games will become more and more similar. Who knows?

A lot of the game play elements in video games aren’t actually necessary, they are a psychological ploy based on the fact that people feel good when they’ve accomplished something. (Not necessarily an intentional ploy, but that’s what they are.) The psychology for why video games are so addicting is actually pretty interesting.

The definition of art is vague and general.

Um, no it isn’t, as you would know if you’d read The Romantic Manifesto. You’re free to decide that esthetics is not part of philosophy and contains no technical terms, but in that case you have nothing whatever to add to this discussion, as any point you make has no basis.

  • Why videogames cannot, apparently, express a creator’s metaphysical value-judgments

and

  • Why they can’t be considered a recreation of reality.

I’m not saying they can’t, I’m saying they don’t. Although, as I said, I’m iffy about the “game” parts of the game because those aren’t a selective recreation of reality but, instead, a redefinition of reality. In fact, the interface between the two aspects isn’t often handled very well. I’ll give you an example from Neverwinter Nights 2, but this sort of thing is endemic, in RPG’s especially.

In NwN2, a major plot circumstance depends on one of your party members being killed by her own grandfather in a rather spectacular way. So, what’s the problem? In the game-world of NwN2, you can bring people back from the dead. So, I ask you, are these elements integrated when you can’t just say “oops, bring her back, okay now let’s get on with things!”

In most games they give you all sorts of mechanisms for getting past doors, traps, stealing stuff from people, etc. But almost always you still wind up encountering the door that you cannot get past using any of the typical methods but must find a specific key for or answer a riddle or convince the invulnerable NPC when under the normal game rules you could just kill them and take whatever it is. The rules of the game aren’t applied consistently to the plot, which in effect means that you do have two separate things that are going on at the same time. Or it could just be that the people that write the games are lazy, I don’t know.

I’m just being cautious about saying whether video games constitute a new art form now because it’s still in its developmental stages. It certainly looks like there’s potential there, but I couldn’t say that it’s definite. Back at the dawn of man when the first people were scratching out symbols on rocks I’d have been tentative about calling it the birth of painting. . . because it might have developed into writing. Same thing here.

Is a game a selective creation of reality? Can a game be based upon its creator’s metaphysical value judgements?

I don’t think so… A game isn’t so much a recreation of reality as practically a redefinition of reality: it sets up a bunch of artificial parameters and an artificial goal and says the equivalent of “off you go now”.

I admit that I don’t get the distinction between a recreation of reality and a redefinition of reality. Is chess a recreation or a redefinition? What about a novel like Snow Crash or Animal Farm?

Flux does sound interesting. I’m checking into it some more.

You can even go one step further and ask the same questions about the myriad puzzles involved in the various sub-plots. Basically, my point is this: a collection of short stories is not a novel. At the moment, all I’ve seen in computer games are collections of short stories (or, if you prefer, short movies) with some puzzles thrown in. Some games may be closer to being a single story or a single movie, esp. the more linear ones presently, but the story of the game is still distinct and separate from (most) of the things that you do in the game.

Think of it this way: the nominal plot of Diablo is that you’re there to rescue the village from the evil demons coming out of a hole in the ground. Okay. Yay. Ninety-nine percent of what you do is killing things and taking their stuff so you can buy stuff and outfit your character. The point of the story is this titanic battle against evil. The point of the game is to make a cool character. Are these two related? Not on your life.

I don’t think there are any artistic elements in video games that would let you say it’s a totally different art form instead of, say, movie cum puzzles.

It seems like your only argument revolves around the fact that you dislike the way video games tell a story, or you think that it doesn’t tell the story well enough. In reality there are games that excels extremely well at these elements, integrating the game play with story progression. For example, the Bungee games Halo and Halo 2, or games like Half Life, simply off the top of my head. Whether it’s from a story telling perspective, or in terms of evoking emotions, or it’s graphic design and musical scores, Bungee did a superb job.

However to only judge a game based on it’s plot, theme, or character seems like a very narrow way of judging video games. You’re trying to define the artistry of the game based on a standard that’s used to judge mediums such as a novel or a movie, while completely ignoring the gameplay and the interactivity element of video games. A multi-player strategy game for example can, through gameplay, teach and emphasize values like resource management, efficiency, long term and short term planning, and for people that are really trying to be good at it – competitiveness, mental calmness, problem solving on the fly, reading the mind of your opponent, the importance of diligence, practice, and hard work, etc. All of these things can be funneled back into reality and teach you real life values that can be applied to virtually any task you want to do.

I’m not saying they can’t, I’m saying they don’t.

I’ve played games which attempt to recreate reality and do a great job, and it was done better than any painting I’ve ever seen, and in some cases real movies which were filmed in reality! I’ve also played games based on fantasy and science fiction.

I’ve played games express the directors, writers, level designers, designers, and artists values and judgements. I’ve played games with themes. So yes they can and do.

Play god of war, play shadow of the colossus, play zelda, even simple games like Super Mario World does.

Still I disagree with the root of this argument. Why does art have to recreate reality to be art? Several of Ayn Rand’s book are fiction, does that negate them from being art? What about Salvador Dali’s The Persistence of Memory? Is that not art because it doesn’t recreate reality?

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what is exactly meant by “recreation of reality.”

I think your issue with Neverwinter Nights is that it is so real, so close to reality, that when anything is inconsistent with reality your suspension of disbelief is shattered. But by that argument all paintings are not art, they’re actually just paper with paint on them, not reality, therefore it’s not art.

However, if you disagree and think paintings are art then do this for me:

Take a screenshot of a game during any instance, print it out, and it is now earned the same status of a painting.

Still I disagree with the root of this argument. Why does art have to recreate reality to be art? Several of Ayn Rand’s book are fiction, does that negate them from being art? What about Salvador Dali’s The Persistence of Memory? Is that not art because it doesn’t recreate reality?

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what is exactly meant by “recreation of reality.”

I think this is the heart of the issue - what does it mean to be a recreation of reality?

I take the term “recreation” very loosely. Art does not need to be a direct reproduction of physical reality in order to be art. It can do so metaphorically. In that sense, a lot of things can be considered art. Games like chess and poker for example has long been considered by many of its players to be a metaphor for life (epitomized perhaps by Bobby Fischer’s famous quote “Chess is life.”). Video games can be too.

Being an artist, and having sold 7 years of my soul to the video games industry in the past, I think I’m fairly well qualified to post this:

Art’s purpose, at least to me, seems to be to (1) to put the artist’s emotional or physical expression into a medium in which he can share that sensation, and (2) to accomplish, as best he can, pushing that sensation into the viewer/listener/reader etc.

Some would argue that my smutty pinups are not art, however they incite lust in their viewers, which pretty much directly proves point 1 and 2. If you reject the adult material on ‘societal value’ premises, then you’re clearly failing your Objectivist principles.

When you look at a painting, you feel something. Most of the time (I do think that Campbells Soup paintings are a joke, but some folks live them). When you read a book, you feel something. When you listen to music, you feel something. When you see a show, or a movie… on and on.

Video games are simply another medium in which artists, storytellers, and musicians can immerse their audience in something in order to share an experience. Just because it is a large collaborative effort, nor a commercial effort, does not disqualify it as an artistic medium. I make my art for money too-- it is what brings home the bacon. Because one profits from art does not disqualify ones effectiveness. To apply a double standard for labor vs art is to, once again, forget your Objectivist principles. Labor is labor, be it forging steel or painting a canvas. Steel workers are in the business of making raw material for modern culture and their technique could be likened to an art; artists are in the business of making things visually interesting; video game producers are in the business of making entertaining experiences. What we do is what we do-- specialization in any industry can be called ‘the art of…’

I detest the double-standard that art is some voodoo metaphysical holier-than-thou ‘lucky’ endowment we somehow absorb. It is not. Artistic talent is something that one works hard for their entire life, always improving but rarely perfecting, at least in their own eyes. Same goes for any other field.

Some would argue that my smutty pinups are not art, however they incite lust in their viewers, which pretty much directly proves point 1 and 2. If you reject the adult material on ‘societal value’ premises, then you’re clearly failing your Objectivist principles.

In terms of being true to Objectivist principles, Ayn Rand defined what art was according to her philosophy. You can’t legitimately change the definition and then question someone else’s Objectivist principles. If you have your own definition of art, that’s great, but you can’t claim that it any way binds Objectivists when an Objectivist definition for art exists and is different than yours.

In terms of being true to Objectivist principles, Ayn Rand defined what art was according to her philosophy. You can’t legitimately change the definition and then question someone else’s Objectivist principles. If you have your own definition of art, that’s great, but you can’t claim that it any way binds Objectivists when an Objectivist definition for art exists and is different than yours.

I think Ayn had a special bitter place in her heart for modern artists. I don’t blame her. However-- how is it rational to officially exclude one form of visual input while including another? Wouldn’t that be irrational? Is this another case of people following blindly word-for-word saying that ‘because Ayn said so, them’s the rules’?

Is this another case of people following blindly word-for-word saying that ‘because Ayn said so, them’s the rules’?

This is the equivalent of “playing the race card”, which is insulting and it gets old. I’m not going to tolerate it anymore. You, like so many others who unoriginally play the “dogma card”, assume that people who agree with the Objectivist concept of (insert idea here), have not seriously considered the concept by means of their own independent reasoning and came to an agreeable conclusion. This is fallacious reasoning on your part.

If unfettered participation on this forum is of value to you, it would be in your best interest to retract and apologize for this insinuation, which is insulting to a great number of members on this board.

You specifically made reference to “staying true to Objectivist principles.” You cannot legitimately claim that unless you are in fact referring to some aspect of Objectivism, in this case the Objectivist concept of art, not some aspect of bobspongism. Objectivism is a closed system and not subject to whatever bobsponge wishes to add to it, change or delete.

*shrug* I’d just like to see someone take on my argument that video games are essentially equivalent to a movie cum puzzles and thus, even if the “movie part” is arguably art the “puzzles part” is not and thus it’s not a new art form, just a combination of an existing one with, well, puzzles.

The made-by-committee argument was neatly overturned by David and I’ve noticed quite a few games that advertise who they were “directed” by, so I guess they’re no different from a movie or play in that respect.

As for the fact that modern games aren’t especially well integrated, this may be a matter that will gradually go away as the medium develops more and more. However, you can’t make claims on what may happen in the future so this is just an argument for delaying the question for five or ten years and seeing what happens.

If you take a beautiful painting and turn it into a jigsaw puzzle, the resulting jigsaw painting is not an entirely new art form . . . in fact it may not even be a work of art in itself. It’s a work of art (a painting) that’s been used to make a puzzle interesting. Make it a 3D puzzle and add a storyline and a sound track and you still haven’t changed the fundamental nature of the thing you’re dealing with.

If unfettered participation on this forum is of value to you, it would be in your best interest to retract and apologize for this insinuation, which is insulting to a great number of members on this board.

What are you insinuating?

How many great numbers are insulted? Let’s have a census of insulted people, please.

*shrug* I’d just like to see someone take on my argument that video games are essentially equivalent to a movie cum puzzles and thus, even if the “movie part” is arguably art the “puzzles part” is not and thus it’s not a new art form, just a combination of an existing one with, well, puzzles.

The made-by-committee argument was neatly overturned by David and I’ve noticed quite a few games that advertise who they were “directed” by, so I guess they’re no different from a movie or play in that respect.

As for the fact that modern games aren’t especially well integrated, this may be a matter that will gradually go away as the medium develops more and more. However, you can’t make claims on what may happen in the future so this is just an argument for delaying the question for five or ten years and seeing what happens.

If you take a beautiful painting and turn it into a jigsaw puzzle, the resulting jigsaw painting is not an entirely new art form . . . in fact it may not even be a work of art in itself. It’s a work of art (a painting) that’s been used to make a puzzle interesting. Make it a 3D puzzle and add a storyline and a sound track and you still haven’t changed the fundamental nature of the thing you’re dealing with.

I have addressed this argument.. actually, saying that the puzzles are a part of the “storytelling” in videogames. I’ll elaborate on it though, since I admit it was vague on my part.

When you read a book, or look at a picture, you have to decode it to extract any value from it. You have to understand what the artist was trying to say, or the end they were trying to achieve. By this, I don’t mean you need the Idiot’s Guide to Literary Symbolism (I’m not even sure it exists, and I can rarely ever stand symbolism), but what I DO mean is that language, in itself, is a sort of puzzle. When you’re reading a book, there are times when you come across a word you don’t understand - you look it up so you can continue with the book. Like an author uses words to advance throughout the novel, so a videogame designer/coder uses interaction (even if this means through puzzles). They’re not meant to keep the player from progressing, and good ones aren’t meant to distract; they’re meant to engage the player, and to help him advance through the story.

(And when I say language is a puzzle - I don’t mean that it’s elusive, I mean that you have to put together the pieces to make sense out of it.)

I think this is the heart of the issue - what does it mean to be a recreation of reality?

I take the term “recreation” very loosely. Art does not need to be a direct reproduction of physical reality in order to be art. It can do so metaphorically. In that sense, a lot of things can be considered art. Games like chess and poker for example has long been considered by many of its players to be a metaphor for life (epitomized perhaps by Bobby Fischer’s famous quote “Chess is life.”). Video games can be too.

What she means by a “recreation of reality” is that art takes realistic things and abstracts them. For instance, an example that Ayn Rand uses frequently throughout the Romantic Manifesto is an apple - in a painting it may be luscious, flawless, round, and bright red - but how many apples do you really see that look like that? Its function is to represent ideas derived from reality, not to record and replay it.

I would say that absolutely, art does not have to be completely realistic, per se, in order to be of value. Take The Matrix for instance (one of my favorite movies). I DO think, however, it has to have some basis in reality, and obviously has to be intelligible by us - otherwise it will render itself intellectually worthless (like many works of modern art).

I think Ayn had a special bitter place in her heart for modern artists. I don’t blame her. However-- how is it rational to officially exclude one form of visual input while including another? Wouldn’t that be irrational? Is this another case of people following blindly word-for-word saying that ‘because Ayn said so, them’s the rules’?

Look bob, I don’t disagree with your opinion on art, nor do I claim to be an Objectivist – I agree with a lot of Objectivist ideas, but not all.

However Objectivism, by definition, is what Ayn Rand says it is. There’s really no room for argument, because since she invented it, she gets to call it what it is. No one says you can’t disagree with her, but when you talk about Objectivist principles , you are essentially talking about it as the way Rand states it.

What she means by a “recreation of reality” is that art takes realistic things and abstracts them. For instance, an example that Ayn Rand uses frequently throughout the Romantic Manifesto is an apple - in a painting it may be luscious, flawless, round, and bright red - but how many apples do you really see that look like that? Its function is to represent ideas derived from reality, not to record and replay it.

I would say that absolutely, art does not have to be completely realistic, per se, in order to be of value. Take The Matrix for instance (one of my favorite movies). I DO think, however, it has to have some basis in reality, and obviously has to be intelligible by us - otherwise it will render itself intellectually worthless (like many works of modern art).

Absolutely. Hence as far as representing reality, art does so metaphorically or symbolically, as opposed to literally. That’s precisely what I am saying though – that games can in fact be a “recreation of reality” (and thus fitting the criteria for art) as long as you derive some sort of meaning from it that pertains to reality. Games like chess for instance certainly become a metaphor for life for many of it’s players. It can be the same with video games.

Look bob, I don’t disagree with your opinion on art, nor do I claim to be an Objectivist – I agree with a lot of Objectivist ideas, but not all.

However Objectivism, by definition, is what Ayn Rand says it is. There’s really no room for argument, because since she invented it, she gets to call it what it is. No one says you can’t disagree with her, but when you talk about Objectivist principles , you are essentially talking about it as the way Rand states it.

Yes, but when you take rational examination of static things like visual art, in order to disqualify one type and qualify another, you have to add metaphysical/mystical attribute to one and not the other, which in essence would be irrational, and then thereby making her definitions self-contradictory? It seems like if one follows Ayn’s rules on what constitutes art, one must abandon much of the foundation which she laid down beneath said art theories.

I agree with a lot of O’ist stuff, but not all, and one thing makes me wonder-- if it is such a perfect closed system, why is it such a debated philosophy?

Yes, but when you take rational examination of static things like visual art, in order to disqualify one type and qualify another, you have to add metaphysical/mystical attribute to one and not the other, which in essence would be irrational, and then thereby making her definitions self-contradictory? It seems like if one follows Ayn’s rules on what constitutes art, one must abandon much of the foundation which she laid down beneath said art theories.

It would help if you used direct quotes from Rand, and then state logically and exactly what you disagree with. As far as I can tell there really isn’t anything “mystical” about Rand’s definition of art. In terms of visual arts, it isn’t enough to simply have the visual aspect – it also requires that there is a meaning in order for it to be art. If I simply kicked over a bucket of paint on a canvas for instance, it isn’t what I would consider art. One problem with the need for meaning however is that it seems entirely (or at least mostly) subjective. Another is whether the meaning that the artist is trying convey is more important, or the meaning that the audience perceive.

I agree with a lot of O’ist stuff, but not all, and one thing makes me wonder-- if it is such a perfect closed system, why is it such a debated philosophy?

It’s closed because Rand says its closed. Doesn’t mean you have to agree with it, and obviously many people don’t. The bottom line is since she invented it, it is what she says it is. You can disagree with it, arguably improve or correct it, but then it wouldn’t be Objectivism (per Rand).

Anyone who doesn’t think video games can be art has never played Deus Ex or Metal Gear Solid before. End of Story. :stuck_out_tongue: