How can I avoid frustration w/ people around me?

Questions about Objectivism
1

Before I begin, I will briefly introduce myself as I am new to these forums, and until now I have only read some posts and understand certain concepts. I’m currently a student in high school, and due to a recent recommendation from my older sibling, I have completed reading The Fountainhead with great opinion of Ayn Rand and the Objectivist Philosophy (however not pretend to understand it all or even enough to associate myself with it). Although my lack of understand, I have changed in my expectation of the people I associate with, and who are around me in general (school, friends etc). Not necessarily always in a negative way, however, in majority it has been the case.

It seems that philosophy is nowhere to be uttered or heard of when mentioned around anyone with a similar age to mine. Frustrating yes, as i rarely have contact with more elderly people (not assuming that I will be able to discuss Objectivism with them either), but it seems as though my current environment is perhaps inadequate to learn Objectivism ‘collectively’ (reason for wanting this being: learning from experience and thought of others; after interpretation naturally).

On top of this, religion is a tremendously emphasized aspect to ‘life’. It seems that instead of forming thoughts for themself and perhaps studying many different sources, they have adopted religion as their ultimate. So basically there are attempted impositions with religion in my current environment.

Changing environment would be an impossibility for me currently, as I will be going into my last year of studies next year, and other than continuing reading Ayn Rands books (reading Atlas Shrugged at the moment), and also reading from these and other forums and sources. Does anyone have any views on ways to perhaps not be so frustrated or expectant of my friends/people around me? As well as have any views on my actions and supposed actions I should take.

I have done a lot of thought on this, and am interested to see what some of you Objectivist fellows will come up with <_< (not a challenge, but a point of curiosity for me).

2

Well as someone who read the fountainhead as a freshman in high school, Atlas Shrugged as a sophomore, and started working through the Essays my last two years, I’ll say it’s not easy. My advice, find a debate club, any political club etc that you can, even if you don’t agree with them, it’s someone to argue with and and codify your positions by arguing them with others.

regarding:

but it seems as though my current environment is perhaps inadequate to learn Objectivism ‘collectively’(reason for wanting this being: learning from experience and thought of others; after interpretation naturally).

Indeed as was my high school. The bigger question is WHY do you need a collective learning environment. Just because that’s the way school is doesnt mean it’s the only (or even the best) way to learn. Read the fiction, read the non-fiction read OPAR read OPAR again, read all the essays referenced in OPAR as you need them to clarify. Re read the novels after having read the non-fiction you’ll get a LOT more out of them. In short think critically about everything (stuff by Ayn Rand specifically) and focus. Don’t worry, you’ll finally meet people that you agree with. (and if you don’t there is always the net)

3

Actually I am involved in a state debating organisation, and I do often (as is my nature) question and challenge particular things that are said to me by teachers/friends/(just about anyone or any source).

Although of course I can naturally see that the path to ‘enlightenment’ I suppose I can crassly put it, is one of self development. I do intend to extensively read Ayn Rand and other Objectivist workings, but at the same time, (perhaps based on false tenets) I have grown to rely on the kind of environment the school provides. A single Instructor or Moderator (Teacher I daresay), and a collective of peers who (without mention about the social segregation) either combine in groups and solve the task, or complete the task on their own. I realise what I’m talking about is actual independent learning and dependant learning, and at the same time that there is definitely a right and wrong, which i understand, but due to (sadly) the habit or institutionalisation (that the school imposes), i have in my learning style varied from self dependence. Naturally its something I will have to obtain before i go to University (and perhaps something I already should have developed).

To a certain extent everyone here is undertaking the same action in their learning process of Objectivism and its ideals, and of course there is absolutely nothing wrong. But where do you say “this is for me to think about and develop”? I can see potentially how some people might just read and observe particular Objectivist articles/books and decide “that is right, how can i find out more to learn about it”. But is it up to the individual to accept it as right (not discrediting at all just hypothetically speculating) and follow it completely? or should the individual take the knowledge and manipulate it (keeping intact the principles) to their life and/or lifestyle. In other words, does your life become Objectivism, or does Objectivism become a tool for living your life?

4

But where do you say “this is for me to think about and develop”?

The question is, what do you think in terms of guiding your own life? Do you think it’s important for you to determine reality, or should you go by what people tell you is real?

I can see potentially how some people might just read and observe particular Objectivist articles/books and decide “that is right, how can i find out more to learn about it”.

I don’t think Ayn Rand ever expected anyone to take her philosophy on 'faith", and I would suspect she expected quite the opposite. As one studies the philosophy, it’s best to test their new found knowledge to see if it accurately represents reality.

or should the individual take the knowledge and manipulate it (keeping intact the principles) to their life and/or lifestyle.

What do you mean by “manipulate”?

5

Out of curiosity, apalazov, what country are you in? I sense that you are not in the U.S. and that English is not your native language.

6

What do you mean by “manipulate”?

I think he probably meant “apply”.

I was lucky, I was introduced to Objectivism by a friend in high school, so I always had one buddy that understood what was what. I think you’ll find that there’s a lot more philosophy in college . . . but this is leavened by the fact that most of it is awful. :stuck_out_tongue:

7

To RationalCop:

Well to generalize, i would say that Objectivism for me is a philosophical tool that helps my mind understand and conceive idea’s in reality. It is not a strict code, but rather guidelines as to how to improve my mind. Although some parts i disagree with(wont get into that now), however, in general it is something I see myself becoming more familiar with and hopefully becoming more learned. By manipulate i meant to apply it in ones life, keeping intact the majority of the philosophy, but at the same time seeing in which way the person can change it to benefit his own lifestyle.

To Unconquered:

Well yes English isn’t my first language, however, at the same time i guess you could call it that, as I was 3 when I started to learn it after I moved to Australia. I suspect what you read and saw, were typo’s as I was writing this post rather late into the night here, and may have been a bit careless in editing and such :smiley: . But rest assured I’m completely competent using the English language <_<

To JMeganSnow: Hehe, yes I heard the same thing about college and philosophy, especially it being perhaps even more misguiding. From the few people i have spoken to in person about it, they have told me that the majority of their courses in philosophy revolved around thinking and studying about the philosophers who advocate chaos theory and such nonsense.

I wanted to raise the point, (after talking to my brother) about Ayn Rand and her secondary relationship. If someone could post some elaborate details about it, it would be really helpful. Also if it was ok, i’d like for someone to post about what Objectivism says about the whole ‘multirelationships’ concept.

(Mod’s note: Fixed spellings etc. - softwareNerd)

8

To RationalCop:

Well to generalize, i would say that Objectivism for me is a philosophical tool that helps my mind understand and conceive idea’s in reality. It is not a strict code, but rather guidelines as to how to improve my mind. Although some parts i disagree with […]

I see several points here that deserve discussion. First, apalazov, what do you mean by “philosophy”? The meaning I have learned from Ayn Rand’s writings is this: Philosophy is the universal science, that is, the body of systematically organized knowledge that answers the basic questions that everyone needs to answer in order to get on with life. In Ayn Rand’s philosophy, those basic questions are:

  1. What exists? (Metphysics is the name of this branch of philosophy).

  2. How do I know about what exists? (Epistemology)

  3. What should I do about it? (Ethics)

  4. Given the fact that we live in society, how should we organize ourselves so that we can individually act ethically? (Politics)

  5. How can I retain all this vast view of the world and my relationship to it? (Esthetics)

So, a philosophy can indeed help your mind operate objectively, but more broadly it acts as your guide in life – in the broadest terms. A philosophy does not tell you which lifestyle to live (in the city or in the countryside, for example). It tells you the broad principles for deciding details like that for yourself.

Next, Objectivist ethics (which is one branch of the philosophy) is extremely strict. It offers principles (not rules) that should apply without exception in normal, civilized society. One example is the necessity of practicing the virture of rationality.

Last, if you have disagreements already, even though you have barely begun your study of Objectivism, then I recommend you hold those disagreements in abeyance until you have completed a systematic study of the basic principles of Objectivism. Some things which may seem wrong now, may make more sense later. (This approach would apply to the study of any philosophy.)

Keep in mind that, if you decide that you agree with the basic principles of Objectivism, the subsequent study of the whole philosophy will be a mattter of years, even decades. Studying a whole philosophy – anyone’s – is a vast undertaking, although one can become familiar with the basic principles within a year or two. A lot depends, of course, on how deeply you want to understand the philosophy, and that depends on your needs.

9

I completely agree with what you have said about philosophy, what its for, and also your comments on the action I should take in my disagreements, and learning more. I think you have given me the answer I was looking for from the beginning, without asking it directly, which I am very greatful for. I do understand that my current knowledge of Objectivism is definately limited and has huge idea’s and concepts that i need to understand. I will keep reading the forums and books to further that.

However I have one last request in the topic, and that is if someone could provide for me, perhaps a prefrencial sequence of Ayn Rands books to read. As i have already read The Fountainhead, and partially Atlas Shrugged, I was just wondering which books to read in what order.

Thankyou all for your time and patience with me <_<

10

apalazov,

You may have missed this before, but I asked what Objectivist books you have read already. This is important because it establishes what you know already and therefore what context your questions and statements are made in.

11

You may have missed this before, but I asked what Objectivist books you have read already. This is important because it establishes what you know already and therefore what context your questions and statements are made in.

As i have already read The Fountainhead, and partially Atlas Shrugged,

Pay attention Inspector… :alien:

So I’m assuming that you haven’t read ANY of her non fiction, the way I’d recommend doing it is finish Atlas, read Anthem, and We the Living (both fiction). Read the first chapter of OPAR(Objectivism Philosophy of Ayn Rand) Then read Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology (ITOE), then continue through OPAR, Peikoff footnotes the book extensively, and most of the footnotes refer to essays in compilations, so I’d read through OPAR with the following books to look at as needed:

For the New Intellectual

The Virtue of Selfishness

Capitalism the Unknown Ideal

The Romantic Manifesto

Good Luck!

– NAS

(Fixed quotation block - softwareNerd)

12

Pay attention Inspector… :stuck_out_tongue:

:glare: Yes, I caught that. But it wasn’t said that the list given was comprehensive, so I didn’t want to make any assumptions.

I’d say as soon as you finish Atlas, cut into the nonfiction. You’ll be itching to do it, I’m sure. :alien:

13

Thankyou very much for your help on that extensive set of books and ordering :alien: I’m sure it will definately help me understand more. Will get started right away, which might mean I wont be here for some time(posting and such), however when I do come back , I wont be as ignorant :glare:

To Inspecter:

Yes Sadly, the ‘comprehensive’ book selection I’ve read from Ayn Rand, is just the 2 books I mentioned :frowning: I didnt want to say anything, but I made mention of that at least twice :stuck_out_tongue: . But thankyou for your general interest anyway :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks to all for your help and support (and especially patience with me)

14

To Inspecter:

Yes Sadly, the ‘comprehensive’ book selection I’ve read from Ayn Rand, is just the 2 books I mentioned :frowning: I didnt want to say anything, but I made mention of that at least twice :stuck_out_tongue: . But thankyou for your general interest anyway :stuck_out_tongue:

To say “I have read the Fountainhead and some of Atlas” is not to say “I have read ONLY the fountainhead and some of Atlas” B)

Anyway, the reason I asked was to get the context in which you asked this:

But is it up to the individual to accept it as right (not discrediting at all just hypothetically speculating) and follow it completely? or should the individual take the knowledge and manipulate it (keeping intact the principles) to their life and/or lifestyle. In other words, does your life become Objectivism, or does Objectivism become a tool for living your life?

And now that I know what you mean by it, I can say: Objectivism is a tool for living your life, but it is a whole system which is not meant to be accepted piecemeal. And as you say, you as an individual must use your judgment and reasoning to verify that it is in fact all true. (But you cannot call yourself an Objectivist if you think even one part of the philosophy of Objectivism is untrue)

15

(But you cannot call yourself an Objectivist if you think even one part of the philosophy of Objectivism is untrue)

Although you have to pay attention to the differences between the philosophy as such and various applications of the philosophy or personal views by Rand or her close associates that isn’t part of the system per say. (eg the often quoted article about why a woman wouldn’t want to be President).

16

Although you have to pay attention to the differences between the philosophy as such and various applications of the philosophy or personal views by Rand or her close associates that isn’t part of the system per say. (eg the often quoted article about why a woman wouldn’t want to be President).

Yes, right, I should have mentioned that. Thanks Nas! :slight_smile: