Hello everyone,
Of late, I grew interested in Ayn Rand’s philosophy. I have read the Virtue of Selfishness, which I liked. I also started reading The Fountainhead but I haven’t gone far yet. Today, I was browsing the Ayn Rand Lexicon website, when a couple questions came to mind:
Can rationality alone cure suicidal depression?
If so, what steps would it take for one to commit oneself fully to reason, when one is in a perpetual state of suffering?
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Can rationality alone cure suicidal depression?
I don’t believe so, in all cases. Depression can be caused by physical disfunctioning of the brain which prevents the correct working of the rational faculty. So in some cases, some other solution, such as a medical solution, is necessary. However, depression can arise from simple failures to resolve contradictions, for example a feeling that life is not worth living because there are evil people in the world. This could result from a feeling that one’s purpose in existing is above all to bring goodness and happiness to all others, while at the same time holding that one’s goal in life is to live for one’s own sake. The irresolvable contradiction arises when both goals cannot be realised, suggesting that one’s own life has no purpose. The solution, offered by Objectivism, is to reconsider the question of one’s goals, and to reject “goodness and happiness of everyone else” as a central purpose for existing.
Rand points out in Introduction to Objectivist Epistemolgy, that introspection is not easy. Nevertheless it is important – as she states, “I ascribe ninety-five percent or more of all psychological trouble and personal tragedies to the fact that in the realm of introspection we are on the level where savages were (or lower) in regard to extrospection. Men are not only not taught to introspect, they are actively discouraged from engaging in introspection, and yet their lives depend on it. Without that, nothing is possible to them, including [proper] concept-formation.” She comments further:
For instance, it might be terribly difficult to know what you feel about your mother-in-law, let’s say (she’s supposed to be the object always of mixed feelings), so it might be hard to decide fully what you really feel about this person. It would be a little easier if you then ask, “Well, how do I really evaluate that person?” Then you might find that you don’t really know. If you want to check, you bring your mental attention, your chain, down to determining what kind of inner states you know for sure, in the simplest terms. And from that, try to rebuild, step by step, your evaluation of this particular, complex problem.
There is a famous line associated with Rand – “Check your premises”. Short and sweet, but to the point. Depression usually arises from holding contradictions, and the solution is to identify the contradiction, and put the relevant premises in the correct perspective. It might be something as simple as realizing that you want to make all men decent and moral, because that is what you are good at doing, but that this is simply a skill and not an absolute power which you can unerringly wield.
I remember Leonard Peikoff claiming in his podcast that when confronted wth psychological problems, not to go to a friend, but to a proper psychologist (finding one is a feat in itself!).
I’ve been depressed, even after reading Atlas, basically because I thought of all the wasted time and potential. Now I’m finding that healing takes time, and if you take the right steps, in proper time, right results will follow.
I strongly believe that depression, and suicide thoughts, are caused by real “material” events, such as accomplishment or frustration, freedom or deprivation of it.
Reading Nat Branden was at the time quiet supportive for me; but if you haven’t yet, Jill by all means read Atlas. You’ll really see the flame of life shinning furiously there.
In correcting my own sense of life troubles, I cannot recommend a diary, or introspection journal, enough. Most of what bothers us psychologically, I think, are contradictions in our subconscious we don’t know about. I find that simply identifying the roots of my problems is about 90% of the work. Coming up with a solution after that is easy, and most of the time it is simply actively remembering what the root of any one particular emotion is. My life improves every entry, and so does my mind.
I strongly believe that depression, and suicide thoughts, are caused by real “material” events, such as accomplishment or frustration, freedom or deprivation of it.
How do accomplishments cause depression? I would think the opposite is true. Are you speaking of when someone has passed their magnum opus and believes they have nothing else to live for?
Can rationality alone cure suicidal depression?
If so, what steps would it take for one to commit oneself fully to reason, when one is in a perpetual state of suffering?
If you are talking about yourself, and it is serious enough to think about suicide, then I think you ought to think through your reasons very carefully, since there is no turning back from suicide once it is done. Definitely talk to a psychotherapist (for talking and finding the problem) or a psychiatrist (for any medical drug needs).
But as to the question of will Objectivism or being rational cure your depression – the answer is yes and no. Being rational, which Objectivism can help you accomplish, will give you more to live for, so long as you don’t focus too much on the irrational things going on that you don’t have any control over. But I have to agree with others about the role of introspection (with or without a psychotherapist) in identifying what the conflicts are that lead you to believe that you cannot accomplish anything, or cannot go beyond what you have already accomplished.
But, in confronting my own personal problems, I have found that introspection alone is not sufficient. Fundamentally, psychological problems stem from two sources: 1) conflicts in the subconscious; and 2) an improper relationship between your mind and existence (on both the conscious and subconscious level).
Objectivism will definitely help you resolve conflicts or contradictions in your conscious mind. It may take a while, but by thinking things through, your conscious mind will be better in tuned with reality with Objectivism as your guide, and you will be much more open to achieving your own happiness.
The subconscious is a little different in that you do not have direct volitional control of your subconscious. That is, if you are feeling down and out about things in general, studying Objectivism will definitely help, and the subconscious will follow through by you making integrations in tuned with reality, for the most part; but you may still have things nagging you in your subconscious that you are not going to be able to resolve merely by thinking about them. Introspection is important, but to fully resolve conflicts in the subconscious you have to set about to take rational actions that may be counter to your subconscious.
For example, if you are down and out and clinically depressed, get professional help, but staying just in your own mind is not going to bring about a solution. You have to get up and pursue values instead of sitting around the house and moping about how bad things are. This might require you acting against subconscious urges to just stay put and do nothing all day long.
In other words, your subconscious needs real pursuit of real values, not just imagining them or reading about them in a novel, in order to have a proper relationship to reality. For example, let’s say you read a novel about someone doing something that you would really like to do, but you are depressed so you don’t do it. Your subconscious will add that up to effectively saying that you are not worthy of pursuing that value, if you don’t actually pursue it. Your conscious mind says it would be great to try, but by not doing it your subconscious will be set to not do it even against a conscious will to give it a try.
So, don’t go by your emotions. Rationally consider a value you want to pursue and then go pursue it, even if you don’t “feel like it.” Act according to reason, rather than emotion. Sometimes this can be very difficult, but it is the only effective way of re-writing the subconscious.
Thanks everyone for your posts.
Nick, I have read Atlas as you recommended. I liked it very much, it’s a very original and well written story. I learned a lot from it, but it didn’t inspire me as I hoped.
Thomas, your post was very informative. I have a question for you: what can a professional psychotherapist do for a person that a person cannot do for himself?
The core reason for my depression is having to live as the common person I am. I’m not an original, or a prime mover as Rand would say. Whatever potential I had was reached in my childhood and it was nothing of relevance to anyone but myself.
Can one really say there isn’t a higher purpose than oneself? Is there really a way to truly live for oneself? Wouldn’t it require a form of self-denial? Whatever a person does, no matter how selfishly, is ultimately for the world, because the world outlives the person. Doesn’t that make the person a tool for a higher purpose? The world is in a constant process of knowledge growth and it outlives individual minds. It seems to me that either you love life above you or you cannot stand it.
Jill,
What do you mean “living for oneself”? and, why does that have to be contrary to creating things that are enduring? For instance, imagine an architect building the Eiffel tower, or an author writing a great book. Could these be examples of people who live for themselves?
David Odden brought up a good point: not in all cases is the malaise of a psychological origin. My boyfriend suffers from a diagnosed Bipolar disorder. There are things he has to control- for example, how much caffeine he imbibes, because otherwise they could precipitate a manic episode- and he must keep taking his medicine regularly. When he does not, no matter how adherent to reason is, his brain chemistry simply is too out of balance for proper functioning and usually ends in a severe manic or depressive episode.
Thomas, your post was very informative. I have a question for you: what can a professional psychotherapist do for a person that a person cannot do for himself?
The thing is that none of us you are asking are professionals. What a good professional can do is to find out if you have a psychological problem or brain chemistry imbalance. A good psychotherapist (a cognitive therapist) can help you to become aware of improper subconscious integrations. However, given what else you wrote, I would say there are definitely some philosophical mistakes you are making.
The core reason for my depression is having to live as the common person I am. I’m not an original, or a prime mover as Rand would say. Whatever potential I had was reached in my childhood and it was nothing of relevance to anyone but myself.
A prime mover in Objectivism does not mean that you will invent Rearden Metal or come up with Objectivism. It means that you learn to think for yourself and act accordingly. In other words, Objectivism is not just for geniuses, and it is not just for those who could start civilization all over again, if necessary. Every man and woman ought to learn to think for themselves, to the best of their ability.
As to living for oneself, this requires the proper philosophical premises (man’s life as the standard) and the proper context (one’s own life or life-time). While it is true that the world was here long before you were and will be here long after you are gone, your only real concern is living your own life while you are here. So, it is not a question of you doing something that will survive for a thousand years, but rather what you do to live your life rationally during your life-time – to make your life the most it can be. And I think you need to check that premise that you have already done whatever you can do with your life as a child. So long as you are alive, you can do more, to the best of your ability. And if you think nothing is perfect, then you need to check that premise. Perfection in Objectivism means doing something rationally, rather than some sort of Platonic Idealism that can never be reached. Your standards of what is perfect ought to be geared to what can be accomplished using reason tied to living life on earth.
Whatever potential I had was reached in my childhood and it was nothing of relevance to anyone but myself.
You seem to be assuming that each of us has some sort of fixed, pre-determined intellectual potential which we cannot surpass. I don’t think this is true. In fact, I have found that one can substantially improve one’s mind through effort and focus. Though one may not become a genius (I use the word “become” because I believe even this is sometimes possible), one can always keep improving.
You seem to be assuming that each of us has some sort of fixed, pre-determined intellectual potential which we cannot surpass.
That’s not what I meant. I meant that my mind was at its best then. I don’t have the same capacities anymore.
My life and what I am to this world just doesn’t interest me. I don’t think anything can help at this point.
Can one really say there isn’t a higher purpose than oneself? Is there really a way to truly live for oneself? Wouldn’t it require a form of self-denial? Whatever a person does, no matter how selfishly, is ultimately for the world, because the world outlives the person. Doesn’t that make the person a tool for a higher purpose?
Yes, one can and should live truly for oneself.
“Higher purpose” is a concept used to convince people to accept becoming victims, nothing else. Everyone who seeks to live for this “higher purpose”, no matter how capable or powerful, is doomed to a life of unhappiness, precisely because it is unattainable. Look at Einstein, or any great scientist or philosopher who found himself often consumed by guilt, misery, or plain confusion because their work was turned against humanity, precisely in the name of this unattainable, undefined “higher purpose” they sanctioned themselves.
To do for the world is to become a slave to the world, and to become a slave to the world is to become a slave to those in the world who seek to be slave masters: the scum of the Earth. The more one does, the more power those parasites have, so if anything, a lack of ability should bring such a slave less pain.
You should do for yourself precisely to avoid the trappings of “becoming a tool for higher purpose”. That said, almost anything you do for yourself will also help others, both in your personal life (in a friendship for instance everybody gains something), and at work (you read Atlas Shrugged, so it’s obvious why). The joy has to come from the friendship and from the work, however, it cannot come from the gratitude of others for that work or service.
The core reason for my depression is having to live as the common person I am. I’m not an original, or a prime mover as Rand would say.
A lot of the characters in Atlas are common people who enjoy their work and their life (in my opinion Dagny is such a person too), and no one is a “superman”. Prime movers are prime movers by choice.
That’s not what I meant. I meant that my mind was at its best then. I don’t have the same capacities anymore.
I doubt that. Granted, children are amazing in many ways but you would not be here if you had not come a long way since childhood. Besides, a lot of childrens capacity comes from how they go about things. You did it back then so you can do it now, and add to it the knowledge and experience you have gained so far. Then when you get old and your mind starts to slow down you will have the wisdom, knowledge and experience of old age to use your mind to it’s fullest capacity.
Also, your minds capacity is not an end in itself that determines your whole life. It’s a tool, that can be sharpened and used in many different ways, for the purpose of attaining all the different values you seek in life.
My life and what I am to this world just doesn’t interest me. I don’t think anything can help at this point.
There are two things that can, and will, help if done properly.
Find a good therapist that can help you deal with this in a rational way.
Make a commitment to resolve this and honestly and thoroughly work through it. I mean, at some point you have to let go of the idea of hopelessness and instead decide to work towards your happiness. The philosophy of Objectivism can be of tremendous help here.
For anyone to really be able to help that part is the most crucial and can only come from yourself. Atleast open up to the possibility that you can make a positive change and improve your quality of life. A lot of people have done that, so you have plenty of proof that it can be done.
The things that have meaning to me are not possible anymore, so how is happiness possible?
The things that have meaning to me are not possible anymore, so how is happiness possible?
So, find some new things to have meaning to you. As those “great philosophers” :lol: Van Halen put it:
“Dream another dream, this dream is over.” (with the emphasis on DREAM ANOTHER DREAM)
To echo Laure’s point: isn’t there something… anything… about which you think: “it would be cool to do that” while also thinking “I could do that if I put the right effort into it”? I don’t mean anything world-shaking. Just something that you would like to do, just for yourself?
There’s many things I think it would be cool to do, but I know I can’t.
There’s many things I think it would be cool to do, but I know I can’t.
Hey! That’s not fair, you didn’t answer my question. I asked about little things: I don’t know what they would be in your case, because it’s something personal, but I mean things like: writing good poetry, being a good cook, understanding the history of the Renaissance, visiting big cities in the U.S.A., camping in lots of state and national parks, being a good gardener, learning to play an instrument.
I’m not interested in little things.
I’m not interested in little things.
Not sure what you mean by “little”. Someone who became a world-famous chef probably started because he was interested in doing some really good cooking, not because he arbitrarily set himself the goal of being a great chef. I doubt Warren Buffett ever set himself a goal of becoming the richest man in the world. He got his kicks from analyzing stocks.
If the cook started by feeling uninterested in making a yummy bread-pudding, or if Buffett started by thinking analyzing one company was boring, then they’d never have become what they are. That does not mean you can fake it. The question is not: “is there something I can take and develop into a hugely ambitious goal?” To ask that question is to jump the gun. The first question is: “is there anything that I like to do, that I find to be fun?” This does not mean it has to be earth-shattering fun, nor something you want to spend your life doing; simply something that is fun when you spend the little time doing it. The essence of life is having fun while you’re alive; if you can build it into a larger goal, that’s great. If not, not…you had as much fun as you could.