What does everyone here think of the idea that, in some contexts, suicide is life-affirming?
What does everyone here think of the idea that, in some contexts, suicide is life-affirming?
That it’s not. Unless you mean in the context of deconstructionist twists of what words mean.
What does everyone here think of the idea that, in some contexts, suicide is life-affirming?
Only in the implied sense that life is too good to continue living with the degree of pain or hurt that a rational suicide entails.
suicide is the worst thing a person could possibly do to themselves and their family. unless they are about to be literally tortured to death (or some other very special case) …one who values life should never even consider it.
while its true that once you’re dead you feel nothing there will always be people who love you and care about you and its them that you would hurt by committing suicide. death might seem like a simple way out …but it is cowardly . it doesnt matter if you’ve been dumped or raped or physically abused…whatever… a person has to be strong…life is worth living. No one ever asked to be born… but they should appreciate the wonderful opportunity they have to live. Life - you either throw it away, misuse it or make the most of it.
~Isabel
If I had an incurable painful terminal illness and my choice was between suicide and months of pain and suffering leading to death anyway, I would likely choose suicide. Basically in order to consider it I would have to already be in a situation where normal life and the pursuit of values was impossible.
suicide is the worst thing a person could possibly do to themselves and their family. unless they are about to be literally tortured to death (or some other very special case) …one who values life should never even consider it.
while its true that once you’re dead you feel nothing there will always be people who love you and care about you and its them that you would hurt by committing suicide. death might seem like a simple way out …but it is cowardly . it doesnt matter if you’ve been dumped or raped or physically abused…whatever… a person has to be strong…life is worth living. No one ever asked to be born… but they should appreciate the wonderful opportunity they have to live. Life - you either throw it away, misuse it or make the most of it.
~Isabel
i don’t agree with this. Life as Ayn Rand means it does not mean simply to survive. This is something that stumped me for a while. To live it not a value, but to live happily is. If a person is being denied happiness, or is in a position where they CANNOT seek values, suicide is justifiable. For example, if a person is in a postion where they are denied freedom of thought and choice and are SIMPLY surviving by breathing, suicide would be viable option.
I suppose in such a contect, then, suicide is life affirming. Its reminiscent of good 'ole Pat Henry. Its like saying: “As sole executor of my being, I choose to live freely (and happily) or not at all.” Its not cowardice. It takes a lot of guts to make a decision like that.
I’m agreeing with Megan here… and to bring up an example: before he was captured John Galt makes it clear that he will accept being tortured - but should the villains decide to torture Dagny he would take his own life. In this situation John could be in tremendous pain (he is being tortured after all) but he knows that his pain is temporary, however know of Dagny being tortured or killed since they needed him at any cost, would make his values unachievable and life not worth living. Anyways, food for thought.
Thanks for your thoughts. I will post a little later–am very busy now.
I think euthanasia, ending life when it becomes unbearable trough some disease or choosing to die swiftly instead of a long agony is life affirming. It’s choosing quality of life over time.
In some rare other occasions suicide can be life affirming. I’m thinking of Socrates, who could easily be saved if he gave up his philosophy or Seneca who tried to educate Nero but failed and was ordered to kill himself. That’s the only two historical cases I can think of.
Other suicides are mostly pointless. If people want to kill themselves because life has no meaning, they should check their premisses. Why does life seem meaningless? What is it that gives your life meaning and why doesn’t it work any more?
To put the above in another way, “suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.” It should only be considered if your problems really are insoluable.
Thanks again for all the input. The reason I asked is we were having a discussion on this topic at a club meeting, and the presenter made the point that life is the standard of a rational man’s ethics. Someone asked the question, “If that is so, why did John Galt say that he would commit suicide if the looters tried to torture Dagny?” I replied that he could not find value in a world where Dagny’s torture was possible, that in such a world, values would be unattainable because Dagny represents for him all that is good in the world. Someone retorted that he would still be ending his life and that in any circumstance is a life-denying action. He was very attached to a few ideas that a good number of the group found fallacious. Firstly, he believed that possessing a life gave man infinite possibilities, and thus, value could never truly be unattainable. Secondly, he argued on the idea that the life-denying or life-affirming quality of an action could be evaluated on a purely biological standard(he did not argue this point explicitly, but his arguement held this implication). He gave no consideration to the philosophical/psycological state of a man, ie quality of life on a rational standard of value. He merely asserted that any action that ended biological life was life-denying. We even asked him if he thought if it was life-affirming if one had a terminal disease, and he replied that, because the possiblity exists that a cure could be found before one dies, that ending ones life was life-denying.
To me, it seemed like his argument is a case of the potential vs. the actual. He thought that the sum of all good possibilties outweighed the suffering of the actual. Additionally he seemed very anti-philosophical, which is probably why he was a libertarian. 
Needless to say, I haven’t argued with him since.
William Thomas of TOC addressed the question of whether suicide is justified in the absence of happiness. It is posted at:
I suppose in such a contect, then, suicide is life affirming. Its reminiscent of good 'ole Pat Henry. Its like saying: “As sole executor of my being, I choose to live freely (and happily) or not at all.” Its not cowardice. It takes a lot of guts to make a decision like that.
When I said in certain circumstances… living the rest of your life in pain because of cancer…was included in it. That said I think you are completely misconstruing the quote by Patrick Henry. Yes, he did say “Give me liberty, or give me death” but that was not saying he was going to commit suicide. That speech was a call to arms to all colonists to rise and fight the British. They were ruled by a tyrant …their pursuit of happiness was being denied…but that didn’t mean they all committed suicide now did it? They fought and that was what I was referring to. You want to be happy in life …then earn it.
Two comments:
A. Socrates`s story was mentioned above by “White Eurocentric Male” as a brave story. To my recollection, he avoided escaping prison and preferred to commit suicide because he did in fact break the law, and he must pay. The law was against “corrupting the sole of the youth”. Given the fact that the story was told by Plato, and it’s moral was that one must always obey state laws, I would hardly call it a moral story.
B. I am seeing more and more in recent years old people, who were vital and energetic through their entire life, becoming in their last years more and more disable and depended on others. If they have the “luck” to live to be over 90, they will probably be more and more weakened. In Israel, the situation is deteriorating from year to year because of the mixture of the rise of life expectancy with the collapse of economics (the socialists here attribute this to “the death of the welfare state”). I cannot say I would blame an old person who would take his own life before reaching this stage.
Ayn Rand, I believe, died in the age of 77 when she was still functioning properly (I am deducting this from the introduction to Philosophy: who needs it). But what if she would live ten years longer and reach the situation described above? What would she want then? I am not at all sure of the answer.
Suicide is a cop-out. Megan wrote: " To live it not a value, but to live happily is". Eh? Then few teenagers would live to see their twenties, as most seem to go through a period of swimming in angst and misery. Should I consider killing myself if my spouse leaves me? Should I kill myself if my girlfriend screws around? Should I kill myself if my compnay goes under and I am laid off? All of these situations would tend to cause unhappiness.
A man puts up with what life dishes out. A man doesn’t wimp out and take the easy way out. A person who has reached the point of suicide is not likely to be operating with the full use of his faculties anyway, as depression screws up a person’s capacity to think.
Speaking as a person who has lost two brothers to suicide…
Suicide is a cop-out. Megan wrote: " To live it not a value, but to live happily is". Eh? Then few teenagers would live to see their twenties, as most seem to go through a period of swimming in angst and misery. Should I consider killing myself if my spouse leaves me? Should I kill myself if my girlfriend screws around? Should I kill myself if my compnay goes under and I am laid off? All of these situations would tend to cause unhappiness.
A man puts up with what life dishes out. A man doesn’t wimp out and take the easy way out. A person who has reached the point of suicide is not likely to be operating with the full use of his faculties anyway, as depression screws up a person’s capacity to think.
Speaking as a person who has lost two brothers to suicide…
Certainly, in all of the situations you describe it would be irrational to commit suicide. However, that does not make it irrational all of the time.
Taking an example from Atlas Shrugged, John Galt said he would kill himself if the looters found out he and Dagny were looters and they arrested Dagny. He said he would rather die than watch her be used as a pawn against him.
Redfarmer,
Atlas Shrugged is fiction. John Galt didn’t exist. I’m interested in real life situations, not fantasy: give me a comparable real-life situation in which suicide is life-affirming. This is so Orwellian: next you’ll be telling me that the chocolate ration has been increased from three ounces to one.
They were ruled by a tyrant …their pursuit of happiness was being denied…but that didn’t mean they all committed suicide now did it?
No, but if they fought and could not attain freedom, suicide would have been proper. And, in a way they did. The founding fathers pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor, because if the colonies lost the war that is what they would have lost. The decision to send King George the Declaration was suicide to anyone who knew the strength of the British army compared to colonial militia. Instead of living with their misery, they fought, yes. But they fought knowing full well the strong possibility that it would mean death. If THERE IS NO CHANCE that you will achieve your values; if you are put in a situation where you the achievement of value and thus happiness is impossible, suicide is a proper action. Life (as in surviving) is not valuable in itself, it is only valuable if there is something to achieve. This achievement causes happiness. If this is being denied to you (for instance if the world is conquered by a facist/socialist party whose goal it is to make everyone slaves..you are out numbered, fighting is not an option) then suicide is life affirming. In order to not live miserably one has two options: 1) change a situation in order to live happily or 2) not to live at all. Of course, try and do #1 first, but if this is impossible #2 is a rational option.
Someone also mentioned teenagers being sad. I was a depressed teenager once, but I knew that once I left home and went to college life would change. Although I was depressed and on the brink of suicide, the obvious potential of the rest of my life prevented me from taking my own life. A situation that warrants suicide is a permanent one, it is one the denies value to you for the rest of your life…yes…like Socrates. Although he was sentenced to death, he could have easily escaped with Crito, but he decided to die because his pursuit, the central purpose of his life, was denied him.
Its wrong to classify suicide as a cowardly action. Its much easer to accept whatever misery that comes along because you fear actually dying. It is a brave transition in the proper and life affriming context. For a person who DOES (when he is allowed to achieve value) value his life it is a very brave decision to make to take take ones own life, to affirm that only he has the power to control or to extinguish his being.
The idea that suicide is inherently cowardly is just a trite tagline taken from public sevice announcements. The kind that the government sponsers to keep people alive and paying taxes. To those who commit suicide due to a depression caused by bad philosophy, yes the death was unnecessary and no it was not cowardly. Rather, a very serious and difficult decision. To those who commit suicide because happiness (their sole purpose) is being denied to them, the act is life affirming.
By the way Dagny,
Its funny that the Rand quote in your signiture refutes the position you maintain: that life (surviving) is valuable in itself.
Redfarmer,
Atlas Shrugged is fiction. John Galt didn’t exist. I’m interested in real life situations, not fantasy: give me a comparable real-life situation in which suicide is life-affirming. This is so Orwellian: next you’ll be telling me that the chocolate ration has been increased from three ounces to one.
I don’t understand what you think Orwell has to do with it. Have you read Atlas Shrugged? Do you understand the purpose of fiction? The proper purpose of fiction is to concretize man’s values for him. Galt loved Dagny so much that he would rather die than see her used against him.
You want “real life” examples of when it would be proper to commit suicide (if you so choose)? Think of the many people who are living in the last stages of a terminal disease where the pain is so unbearable it degrades their love of life.
You are defining suicde as the end of a desperate soul who most likely is suffering from psychological problems. That is only one meaning of suicide. Certainly, killing yourself because of psychological problems is very irrational and does not affirm your life at all. Suicide, however, is properly define as “The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself.” (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company., as quoted by AIM bot SmarterChild).
Simply because there are instances where it is irrational to kill oneself does not mean that every instance is irrational.