Black Wolf Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) Hello, Please accept my apology for not fully understanding objectivism. Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Ricky. I am 19 years old, male, gay, former liberal, and libertarian. I am unsure of whether or not libertarianism and objectivism are necessarily similar philosophies, but I joined this forum because, judging by the posts here, it seems to be comprised of intelligent people. Please forgive me that I do not fully understand the distinctions between libertarianism and objectivism. A little background as to how I was turned libertarian. Before this, I was moderately liberal. What caused me to become liberal, I think, was my skepticism for religion, my outrage at the way modern homosexuality was demonized, and my inability to support Bush's foreign policies. It was because of the aforementioned things, combined with the fact that almost every forum I frequent is saturated with liberals, or liberal leaning viewpoints, that I felt at home with the political philosophy of modern liberalism. My liberalism grew stronger during the elections of 2008, and I felt very strongly about Barack Obama becoming the President of the United States. I was taken in.. but I was skeptical as to how it was okay to deliberately admit to being biased against Republicans. I never really understood why I had to be against Bush's fiscal policy just because I was against his foreign policy. So, as an attempt to make sure the war in Iraq would not continue, I voted strongly for Barack and hoped that he would win the presidency. I jumped on the bandwagon and voted for the lesser of two evils. I gave the lesser of two evils a reason to be evil, giving him the dignity of voting for him. I lost a lot of friends for not being fiscally liberal. I lost friends for being for less business regulations. I lose friends for not buying into the myth that tax cuts for the rich meant that rich people were "not paying their fair share", even though they were paying significantly more than those making less money than them, percentage-wise. I lost a lot of friends, because I didn't believe in sacrificing freedom for security. I was falsley accused of being against the poor and in favor of the rich for my lack of vindication towards them. I still have a boyfriend who leans very left, and I still have a lot of liberal friends who can agree to disagree with me, and do not accuse me of beliefs that are patently false. I do, however feel outnumbered by the overwhelming amount of liberalism on the internet. Which I do rather enjoy, I perfer to be in a position where my views will be challenged routinely. It's a more enlightening feeling than when I was surrounded by agreement. It is, however, nice to be in a community in which people share common ground with your economic and fiscal views. Then again, I am perhaps assuming to hastily the lack of distinction between libertarianism and objectivism, but nonetheless, I would love to learn more about the latter. I can't by any means call myself an objectivist, but I took a leap. I took a leap, and decided to join this forum. I have no regrets. Edited September 14, 2009 by Black Wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackethan Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Allow me to be the first to welcome you to the forums Ricky! I am also gay and I am an Objectivist so I think we have something in common. Your story is similar I think to many others' here. My first question is, have you read any of Ayn Rand's books, if so which ones? You're welcome to ask questions around here, and I'm sure you'll find people, some may agree, some may disagree with you. We also have chat, you may have noticed, I hang around there most of the time if you'd like to chat there. Welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Welcome to OO.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D'Ippolito Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 On the surface, Objectivism and Libertarianism seem similar. In fact depending on what you use to make the distinction between "Libertarianism" and "Everything Else", you might even conclude (correctly within that context) that Objectivism is simply another branch of Libertarianism. Therein lies the error that messed me up for 23 years. "Libertarian," it turns out, is an "umbrella" term for anyone who thinks we have *way* too much government in this country. It therefore encompasses some people on the religious right, anarchists (those of a more capitalist bent at any rate), a very small number of Republicans (certainly not the ones in charge in that party), etc., etc. The Libertarian party is an incredibly disparate coalition. Back in my days as a member of the LP, a bunch of us sat down and tried to figure out what *specific* issues one could disagree with that would make one unambiguously NOT a Libertarian and therefore make one ineligible to hold office in our county organization. We could only come up with two issues (gun rights and opposition to the drug war) for which we could not conceive a libertarian argument the other way. Even abortion could be argued against by someone who accepts the premise that the fetus is a human being and therefore has rights. In fact our whole effort to devise such a test foundered when someone who was there insisted that abortion rights be added. This was someone, by the way, who refused to quit the Republican party, insisting on a test that would have disqualified at least two of the actually voter-registered Libertarians who were there. And Oh By The Way our wonderful state organization then ran a couple of anti-gun candidates for the state legislature, solely so that they could claim they had filled the ballot, unlike the Democrats. Not from my county, but I could no longer claim we had never done so, when talking to "gunnies". But therein lies the problem. Without a *proper*, grounded-in-reality conception of rights, you will run into these situations, where someone claims to be "pro freedom" whilst wanting to violate peoples actual rights because of their personal prejudices. Now it is certainly possible that individual branches of Libertarianism will have a fairly well thought out and consistent rationale for what they think (e.g., the Rothbardians), but when you dig down you will invariably find problems with their premises. And yet, you are expected to lump Rothbardians and our gun-grabbing candidate together and call them both "Libertarians" when they have very little in common. Although I am not as hostile to Libertarians as many O-ists are (I am hostile to *some* flavors of it), I am profoundly glad to say I am not one anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wynnbrando Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Welcome. As you explore these new ideas, try to keep in mind that Objectivism is not just about politics. It all starts with the individual, and a lot of the benefits and good stuff will have to do with how you live your own life. Have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Welcome. It is assumed that an Objectivist could spell Objectivist, I suppose. I would contact the Ayn Rand Institute, were I you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelH Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 You have developed an excellent habit: asking questions of the group about the nature of its beliefs. That is a good habit to keep, on this forum and in life. I/we hope you find the forum informative and helpful. Welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Mac Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Welcome to the forum! Like Tom, I'm usually in chat where things are more casual and you can get to know people better. I hope you learn as much as I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylortitle Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) Hello, Please accept my apology for not fully understanding objectivism. Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Ricky. I am 19 years old, male, gay, former liberal, and libertarian. I am unsure of whether or not libertarianism and objectivism are necessarily similar philosophies, but I joined this forum because, judging by the posts here, it seems to be comprised of intelligent people. Please forgive me that I do not fully understand the distinctions between libertarianism and objectivism. A little background as to how I was turned libertarian. Before this, I was moderately liberal. What caused me to become liberal, I think, was my skepticism for religion, my outrage at the way modern homosexuality was demonized, and my inability to support Bush's foreign policies. It was because of the aforementioned things, combined with the fact that almost every forum I frequent is saturated with liberals, or liberal leaning viewpoints, that I felt at home with the political philosophy of modern liberalism. My liberalism grew stronger during the elections of 2008, and I felt very strongly about Barack Obama becoming the President of the United States. I was taken in.. but I was skeptical as to how it was okay to deliberately admit to being biased against Republicans. I never really understood why I had to be against Bush's fiscal policy just because I was against his foreign policy. So, as an attempt to make sure the war in Iraq would not continue, I voted strongly for Barack and hoped that he would win the presidency. I jumped on the bandwagon and voted for the lesser of two evils. I gave the lesser of two evils a reason to be evil, giving him the dignity of voting for him. I lost a lot of friends for not being fiscally liberal. I lost friends for being for less business regulations. I lose friends for not buying into the myth that tax cuts for the rich meant that rich people were "not paying their fair share", even though they were paying significantly more than those making less money than them, percentage-wise. I lost a lot of friends, because I didn't believe in sacrificing freedom for security. I was falsley accused of being against the poor and in favor of the rich for my lack of vindication towards them. I still have a boyfriend who leans very left, and I still have a lot of liberal friends who can agree to disagree with me, and do not accuse me of beliefs that are patently false. I do, however feel outnumbered by the overwhelming amount of liberalism on the internet. Which I do rather enjoy, I perfer to be in a position where my views will be challenged routinely. It's a more enlightening feeling than when I was surrounded by agreement. It is, however, nice to be in a community in which people share common ground with your economic and fiscal views. Then again, I am perhaps assuming to hastily the lack of distinction between libertarianism and objectivism, but nonetheless, I would love to learn more about the latter. I can't by any means call myself an objectivist, but I took a leap. I took a leap, and decided to join this forum. I have no regrets. I'm both an Objectivist and a libertarian. The primary difference I have seen is in the area of foreign policy and immigration(which I consider to be part and parcel of a foreign policy). Objectivists would be close to what is termed today as neo-conservativism as to an agressive foreign policy towards nations that are, more or less, antagonistic to America. Libertarians would agree more with what the original founding fathers believed.....only attack those nations after it is clearly determined that there is an immanent threat to the nation or, obviously, if our country has already suffered an attack. As I don't feel it is our duty to engage in nation-building or spreading "democracy", I cannot abide with our current aggresive policy. Of course, many Objectivists will say that there is a moral right to attack those nations that enslave their peoples and do not respect man's, qua man, natural rights. I can't abide with that either. We should trade with any nation, including Cuba, and let those nations decide their own internal affairs whether we deem them to be evil or not. Another area I see as an error with certain Objectivists is in the area of immigration. Many Objectivists believe that our borders should be loose and welcome low-paid workers to our system of capitalism. I disagree. Citizenship is of vital importance to our Republic. Our immigration laws may need to be re-examined, but until a full, rational, objective debate takes place on that subject...our borders should be strictly policed not just with a strong border patrol but by the military as well. Our nation has evolved into a Welfare/Warefare state. We have more than 170 military bases in over 100 countries. That is an empire no matter how you define the term. As I said, I'm both libertarian and Objectivist. I just finished re-reading "Atlas Shrugged" for the 4th time. It never fails to captivate me both intellectually and emotionally. Edited September 15, 2009 by softwareNerd Merged two posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 My post above no longer makes sense as the OP edited his original post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SapereAude Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Welcome Ricky. Congratulations on starting down the path to reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 I am new to this forum as well, but welcome to the forum. Regarding your initial question I would suggest all of the Ayn Rand non-fiction as well as Leonard Peikoff's "Philosophy of Ayn Rand". I found Peikoff's work particularly helpful, and his podcast is worth a listen as well. In my limited experience the issue of the Libertarian party's incompatibility with Objectivism is rooted in it's lack of grounding principles. They begin with a floating "freedom is good, government is bad" premise that leaves lots of room for patently destructive and evil ideologies to take root, as well as making impossible to present a coherent defense of liberty. Objectivism is a grounded philosophy and is quite aggressive to boot. There are fundamental incompatibilities. I will offer a word of warning, of a sort. In my experience once you begin to seriously explore Objectivism you will likely find yourself involved in a struggle. You have a lifetime of learning and habitual thinking along certain lines. Beneath that you have a particular sense of life. Objectivism will challenge all of this, and there can only be one victor in the end. This is a difficult philosophy to practice. Good luck. I'll see you on the forums. I hope my opinions were informative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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