Who Is The Audience For OO.net ?

[softwareNerd]

Split from this other thread (link).

David,

Good to have people brainstorm here about ideas. While we do this on the one hand, I suggest a parallel business-analysis type approach.

For instance, you've summarized the purpose of OO.net thus:

ObjectivismOnline will bring together the vast marketplace of Objectivist ideas, commentary on current events, essays written by intellectuals, discussion with Objectivists, and the vast number of other Objectivist websites that have spread across the Internet!

Could you share more details of your vision for OO? When you visualize your objective, do you see OO and a place where seasoned Objectivists come to enrich their lives in some way, where budding Objectivists and the not-yet-Objectivists come to explore the philosophy further? What analogies might you use: magazine? newspaper? library? study-group? church? social-club? what else?

If one takes the life-cycle of an Objectivist, from awareness, through interest ,through action and then maturity, at what stage to you see OO playing the most important role?

Edited November 8, 2005 by softwareNerd

[DavidV]

When you visualize your objective, do you see OO and a place where seasoned Objectivists come to enrich their lives in some way, where budding Objectivists and the not-yet-Objectivists come to explore the philosophy further? What analogies might you use: magazine? newspaper? library? study-group? church? social-club? what else?

Why not all of the above? This site has many sections to match particular needs: an essay archive, a knowledge base, a philosophy forum, chat room links, a blog, etc.

[softwareNerd]

Why not all of the above? This site has many sections to match particular needs: an essay archive, a knowledge base, a philosophy forum, chat room links, a blog, etc.

I reckon you're right. If "newbies" are going to get answers, you need folk here who can provide those answers. So, you need both those types. [Needless to say, that's a bit of an oversimplification. There are more than just two 'types'. However, its easier to think about specific 'prototypical' users. I suppose -- as you have identified -- there may be a third type: 'intellectuals'.

Let's brainstorm about Newbies:

These folk found out about recently about Ayn Rand and are eager to learn more.

Today, they are most likely to search for more information by going on the web. I just tired Google searches for "Ayn Rand" and for "Objectivism" and this site came up on the RHS. What about the other sites that come up? Would any of those sites be willing to link back to this site (assuming that they're sites that are worth being associated with)?

Where else would a newbie go for more information? ARI? Well, ARI would probably not link here. However, ARI would often refer the newbie to a Campus Club. Are all the ARI-related Campus Clubs aware of this site? Do they all link to this site from their own sites? Do they promote this site at speaking events? Is there some specific value a Campus Club could gain from this site?

Even if ARI does not approve or disapprove forums like this, would they be willing to send mailers (at a charge). Not sure if they do this -- where an group like your sends ARI a flyer and if they approve its content, they mail it out on your behalf. So, it comes from you -- without any ARI approval -- and yet they do not reveal their address list. Every year many newbies write in to ARI asking for information. Its them I am thinking about.

I cannot think of any other cost-effective ways of reaching newbies.

Next, how about the "oldies":

These people are "into Objectivism". They are often already involved in some mailing list, forum, newsgroup, objectivist clubs, dating/socializing sites, etc.. Some of these other forums would allow links or advertisments. Does HBL allow this?

These people also go to conferences once a year. Has every Objectivist who attends the annual conference been motivated enough to visit this site at least once to check it out? If not, how to acheive that?

What about the groups that we do not like? The Kellyites etc. Might they be attracting a certain number of people who happen to find them first or find them appealing. Perhaps some of these folk really belong with us. How do we act as catalysts, without support ing something we disagree with?

PS: I hope you don't mind these posts that are more in the "thinking aloud" category. I think they might help someone come up with some ideas.

[softwareNerd]

In order to market/advertise ObjectivismOnline.net, one of the critical starting points is to ask ourselves who we want to market ourselves to. Here is a tentative description of our potential "customers".

Audience: Objectivists, students of Objectivism, Ayn Rand fans, people curious about Objectivism. (For this thread, I'm going to use the term "Objectivist" to refer to all the above types)

Too narrow? What about people who are really not interested in Objectivism, should we be trying to "convert" them. I don't think this fits with the primary goals of the site. The best way to convert someone is to get them to read Ayn Rand. I see "conversion" as ARI's main purpose. Once a person takes the first step toward Objectivism, that's where our site comes in.

Too wide? Can one site provide value to the various types of Objectivists? Should we focus on one type: e.g. people learning about Objectivism; or, "experienced" Objectivists, etc.? I think not. I think that the audience is not large enough to warrant a narrower focus. Also, there are clear advantages in having "diversity" [couldn't resist it!]

I wanted to solicit thoughts of other members on this topic: am I missing a key customer-type in the above description?

(Edited to change sub-title.)

Edited September 12, 2005 by softwareNerd

[BurgessLau]

Two related questions are: Who are this organization's customers? What are this organization's products or services that will be offered to its customers? These two questions work together.

Neither can be decided until a preliminary context-setting question has been decided: What is this organization's purpose?

The analogy is to an individual's life: Everything he does should be directed toward his ultimate purpose in life -- happiness.

So, what is Objectivism Online's ultimate purpose?

If the answer is two or more things, then what integrates them into one?

Edited August 13, 2005 by BurgessLau

[KevinD]

Two related questions are: Who are this organization's customers? What are this organization's products or services that will be offered to its customers? [. . .]

Neither can be decided until a preliminary context-setting question has been decided: What is this organization's purpose?

I find these a very strange set of sentences. "Neither can be decided . . ."?

You can decide exactly who OO.net's customers are, and know why they visit, without any theoretical thinking at all. This website already exists; it has nearly 2,000 members who have made over 58,000 posts. Granted, many of those are probably inactive or visit only occasionally, but even there you can get an idea of who's not (or is no longer) an enthusiastic user.

The point is, as always, to look at reality. Determine first who are your customers and what are their specific needs, then draw your purpose from that data.

In other words, you don't begin by asking: "What would we like to do?" You begin by asking, "What can we do?"

Or in still other words, your purposes and desires are totally unimportant — until and unless you clearly understand your customer's purposes and desires.

The order of causation, at least in a successful business, is exactly the reverse of what you mention.

Edited August 13, 2005 by Kevin Delaney

[softwareNerd]

I didn't state the purpose, because I took the one from the forum-rules as a reasonable one. I ought to have stated that explicitly.

This website facilitates trade among Objectivists and students of Objectivism. The primary -- but not only -- form of trade will be information about Objectivism and discussion about its applications.(link to rules)

[BurgessLau]

I find these a very strange set of sentences. "Neither can be decided . . ."?

If by "strange" you mean "unfamiliar," then I certainly agree with you. The idea -- the very idea! -- of considering one's own desires within the overall context of one's own purpose is certainly unfamiliar to most of the business people I have met. Such people were pragmatists who considered only the bucks, never mind how they were gained.

You can decide exactly who OO.net's customers are, and know why they visit, without any theoretical thinking at all.

(Bold added for emphasis throughout my post here.)

Here is what SoftwareNerd said in the opening paragraph of this thread: "In order to market/advertise ObjectivismOnline.net, one of the critical starting points is to ask ourselves who we want to market ourselves to. Here is a tentative description of our potential 'customers'."

This exercise isn't an analysis of present customer base, but about who OO's customers should be -- given a context-setting purpose for OO (which, I assume, fits into the administrators' own ultimate purpose in life).

The point is, as always, to look at reality.

Absolutely. The question is, should we take the pragmatic businessman's approach of looking at only one patch of reality, or should we look at all of reality as we have experienced it, understood it, and used it as a basis for setting overarching -- and therefore context-setting -- purposes?

Determine first who are your customers and what are their specific needs, then draw your purpose from that data.

I radically disagree. I prefer the approach of the fictional character, Howard Roark, and the real-life inspiration of Ayn Rand: Decide one's hierarchy of purposes and then go looking for customers who will pay to see those purposes put into reality to their benefit. The idea is to decide what one wants to do (within the context of a rational understanding of the whole world, not just a patch of it), and then make it pay as well as possible.

In other words, you don't begin by asking: "What would we like to do?" You begin by asking, "What can we do?"

Again, I disagree. First, one should ask, "What, based on all that I know about myself and the world around me, do I want to do?" If the answer is objective -- that is, conclusions are drawn logically from the facts of reality -- then the "can" is already included.

Or in still other words, your purposes and desires are totally unimportant — until and unless you clearly understand your customer's purposes and desires.

To the contrary, the business owner's purposes should be paramount on all the essentials of designing a business. The negotiating with customers comes only in the nonessentials. If I love designing and manufacturing cars, I won't design baby-buggies, no matter how much money customers might throw at me. I don't care about color or internal fabric, so I can make a range of those available to potential customers, but one should not let them dictate changes away from what one loves to do.

The order of causation, at least in a successful business, is exactly the reverse of what you mention.

Guy Francon was successful in business. Thanks, but no thanks.

Sadly, for many businesses, your statement is true. I saw that in my own 20 years of experience in business as a writer, editor, and publications manager. Most business people strive for only the bucks and have no satisfaction in creating products and services they love, as part of their basic purposes in life.

Edited August 13, 2005 by BurgessLau

[DavidOdden]

The point is, as always, to look at reality. Determine first who are your customers and what are their specific needs, then draw your purpose from that data.

In other words, you don't begin by asking: "What would we like to do?" You begin by asking, "What can we do?"

Or in still other words, your purposes and desires are totally unimportant — until and unless you clearly understand your customer's purposes and desires.

That would be appropriate if the purpose of OO were to build the largest-possible customer base: or, if the purpose were to best preserve exactly the existing customer base. Given my understanding of OO, the concept of "customer" strikes me as inappropriate, i.e. it is indiscriminate. IMOO, David (Veksler, not me) is really the one to determine what the basic purpose of this board is. To the extent that I share those values, I will stay and contribute. My purposes and desires therefore are extremely important, because my central purpose in life is me, and not the anonymous customer. Now on to the question of values: it is also not one of my purposes in life to altruistically let this board descend into the muck and mire of nihilistic cultural relativism, collectivism and irrationality just so that there could be more "customers" here. I will work against any moves in that direction, and will depart only when the fight becomes futile. That means that we do get to decide who the customers are. Not necessarily by name, but certainly by character.

[softwareNerd]

So, we all agree,then .

No, we don't want riff-raff who come here to troll. More important, I think the "general public" is not our audience. Even people who are likely to be interested in Objectivism are not our primary audience (though its might be worthwhile experimenting if one can identify a "targettable" group of that type, as in the discussion on Terry Goodkind fans).

I define our primary potential customer/audience as follows:

people who are already aware of and interested in Objectivism to some extent. (From this, subtract the libertarians and other riff-raff.)

Given that customer, Kevin's point about asking "what does the customer want?" is important in developing the "product" (i.e. the forum). Does the our customer want to discuss specific aspects of Objectivism, to trade with other Objectivists, to discuss common values, what? How can we make the forum a place where our customers find better value?

As important as that is, I'd like to focus on publicity and advertising. How do we make our potential customers aware of our presence?

A simplistic model of buying behaviour is:

Customer "need" --> Product Awareness --> Interest --> Purchase

Given that we know whom we want as customers, how do we make them aware of the forum? I recently volunteered to help David with this aspect. I intend to post my thoughts, and would appreciate thoughts from other members.

[DavidV]

Even people who are likely to be interested in Objectivism are not our primary audience

This has been the case in the past, but I want to change this. I believe that you have experimented with creating Google ads to take advantages of current events – I think this is one good method of doing so. I would not shy away from competing with ARI – their “product” offers many things we cannot, but we have the opportunity to cover niche areas they don't (such as bloggers) and provide resources they can't (this forum).

Who are this organization's customers?

We need to be more specific about the demographics of this group. In particular, I think that new college students are our most important market, and the marketing effort should take account of that.

What are this organization's products or services that will be offered to its customers? These two questions work together.

While this forum has become the most active part of this website, it was never my vision for it to be the primary product of this site. I would like to have the primary value of the site to be a resource on Objectivism. I have tried a number of forms for building such a resource – the essay collection, the Wiki, the blog, and the “Questions about Objectivism” and “Premium” forums.

My goal is to set up a mechanism that encourages knowledge to be distributed in some sort of systematized manner from “experts” to “newbies.” This is important for a number of reasons, but primarily because identifying and categorizing high-quality content makes the “product” more valuable – and therefore effective.

[BurgessLau]

Given that we know whom we want as customers, how do we make them aware of the forum?

I have one suggestion I am sure you already know -- but it is always helpful to spell these things out. The most powerful advertisement is, first, providing a product that meets the target audience's standards, and, second, relying on that audience's own word-of-mouth promotion.

The administrators of OO.net can't control the word-of-mouth part, but can determine the quality of the product that the target audience wants.

Here is my proof, based on my own experience. In the last couple of months I have seen the quality of OO.net rise, partly as a result of more ruthless moderation. The attackers of Objectivism are gone now, from what I can see. (I do not read all threads.) So, once again I have resumed suggesting to my Objectivist friends that they consider returning to OOnet.

[softwareNerd]

This has been the case in the past, but I want to change this.  I believe that you have experimented with creating Google ads to take advantages of current events – I think this is one good method of doing so.  I would not shy away from competing with ARI – their “product” offers many things we cannot, but we have the opportunity to cover niche areas they don't (such as bloggers) and provide resources they can't (this forum).

It is not too difficult to bring non-Objectivists to the site. However, as you said, the forum is the biggest part of the site. Two issues arise from this:

1) The forum is a poor landing place for non-Objectivists. There are a lot of things that can be done to create better "landing places" for non-Objectivist who come here looking for viewpoints on London Bombings, Kelo, etc. However, most of what we have to offer is a forum thread on the subject. More often than not, those do not make good reading material for a context-lacking non-Objectivist visitor.

2) To the extent that non-Objectivists do sign up for the forum, it will change the nature of the forum itself, with possible negative effects on other members (see Burgess's points)

In summary, "converting non-Objectivist" is a interesting and challenging goal. However, we need to have the right product first (or the right sub-product).

With that said, I see three customer segments:

[A] Committed Objectivists

Those who are interested in Objectivism

[C] Non-Objectivists who take ideas seriously [discussed above]

Our product, as it exists today, is aimed at [A] and . Aiming it at [C] is more of a product-design/alternative-product effort than a marketing effort.

When it comes to [A] and , I have some thoughts on marketing to these segments. More on this later.

[AisA]

My goal is to set up a mechanism that encourages knowledge to be distributed in some sort of systematized manner from “experts” to “newbies.”  This is important for a number of reasons, but primarily because  identifying and categorizing high-quality content makes the “product” more valuable – and therefore effective.

There is one particular group of “newbies” we should not forget. I refer to the many thousands of students around the country that reading the Anthem and The Fountainhead through ARI's free books project.

ARI reports that to date they have shipped over 165,000 copies of these two books. Assuming each book has been read by two students, and assuming that, say, one in three readers is interested enough to pursue more information, that amounts to 110,000 young people seeking more information about Miss Rand and Objectivism. (The number could be far higher and is sure to grow.) Where do these young people go for more information? How do we get them to come to OO.net?

There is a tear-out insert in the books for requesting additional information through the mail from ARI. Who sends for more information through the mail these days?

The insert mentions the address aynrandinfo.org, and at the bottom of that site there is a link to ARI, if one is determined enough to find it. Surely ARI can do better than this.

Today's students are obviously savvy enough to see what's on the Internet. A Google search on +Objectivism "Ayn Rand" yields multiple references to TOC and SOLO HQ on the first few pages, along with sites ridiculing Rand, but does not mention this forum. I am sure it is on the list somewhere, but how many people look beyond the first few pages of a Google search when not looking for a specific site?

Nor does the ARI website provide guidance on which Internet sites provide the best information. I don't know what Mr. Veksler thinks about it, but I think ARI should direct those young people to OO.net (and possibly to the The Forum for Ayn Rand Fans). They could do this by modifying the insert in the books (might be expensive) or by sending out additional inserts in future shipments of books. At a minimum, the ARI website should recommend OO.net, not as a means of learning Objectivism but as a resource for getting questions answered. A link should be provided.

I am not suggesting that we attempt to hide the existence of TOC or other libertarian-leaning organizations that pose as Objectivists. However, with the proliferation of websites purporting to be Objectivist, what is a newbie to think? ARI has a responsibility to provide guidance along with Miss Rand’s books.

One cannot learn an entire philosophy from a forum, but having access to people that can answer questions in real time is enormously helpful -- provided they are the right people. ARI should take more steps to insure that the growing audience they are creating is not mislead by pseudo-objectivists.

I realize, of course, that any such program must be agreed to by ARI -- and it might be a tough sell. But before approaching them, it must be considered by Mr. Veksler.

ARI recently announced a one million dollar grant for the book program. So the number of young people exposed to Objectivism is going to increase significantly. I am interested in any other ideas the members of this forum may have for attracting this young audience. It is the future of Objectivism.

[softwareNerd]

...one particular group of “newbies” . the many thousands of students around the country that reading the Anthem and The Fountainhead through ARI's free books project...

An excellent idea. Reaching them is one thing, the other is what "sub-product" we can provide that would be helpful to someone taking part in the essay contest.

Oddly enough, someone registered the domain "aynrandessay DOT com" just two days ago. Today, I registered the aynRandEssay.net domain, just in case we can think of a use for it.

A Google search on +Objectivism "Ayn Rand" yield

We definitely have to do something to make the forum rank better in "Ayn Rand" searches. Right now:

1) Google "Objectivism", and we are about 6th. Not excellent, but not too bad either.

2) Google "Ayn Rand", and we don't come anywhere on the first couple of pages (as good as not appearing at all).

We need to work the words "Ayn Rand" into our title and into some forum content.

Googling "Ayn Rand" brings up Advertisements for the forum (RHS), but many people do not really "see" the ads.