RosszValaki Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 How do you seek forgiveness for having been a Christian? I look at the question and it seems laughable but its something that has bothered me for a few years now. I was a Fundamentalist Christian. I was even an Evangelist for a few years. I Preached the Gospel and even led people to salvation. As I look back now I cringe at the things I did that at the time I felt where the height of morality. I would love to try to reverse the damage I caused to people but I have no way of contacting them even if I could change their minds again. I know that on some level they are responsible for what they believe but I did have an effect. I Preached even after I lost faith. At the time I felt I wasn't a good enough person to ever live as an Objectivist and I deserved Christianity. If someone gets AIDS from a promiscuous life it doesn't make the person they got it from bad unless the person knew they had AIDS. For almost a year I had Ayn Rand quotes in my head contradicting everything I Preached. It was intolerable. Its been a long road but I am finished struggling with reason and simply except it as all there is and have slowly come to love it. The question remains, how do I make amends for the harm I caused others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeganSnow Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 The question remains, how do I make amends for the harm I caused others? By identifying and integrating the principles of a rational philosophy and refusing to compromise on them ever again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Capitalist Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 By becoming a good person, worthy of admiration of others, and making sure that what happened in your life does not happen to other people, if you can help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
source Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 The question remains, how do I make amends for the harm I caused others? By finally turning to yourself and become selfish on principle. Others are indeed responsible for what ideas they hold as true. To those you "inspired" you owe nothing but an apology. Dwelling on your past will not do much good now. You know your mistake and you have chosen to stop making it, and that's all the dwelling you needed to do. It is time to rebuild your own life - which reminds me to ask you: Do you think that you have done more damage to others or to yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valjean Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 It's very inspiring to see that you've changed your ways. Don't worry about forgiveness anymore. The only person that can forgive you is yourself. You acted to promote your values--that is admirable; you just had the wrong values because somebody had tricked you first. P.S. There is a song by Morrissey called "I have forgiven Jesus" which you may be interested in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosszValaki Posted May 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 By finally turning to yourself and become selfish on principle. Others are indeed responsible for what ideas they hold as true. To those you "inspired" you owe nothing but an apology. Dwelling on your past will not do much good now. You know your mistake and you have chosen to stop making it, and that's all the dwelling you needed to do. It is time to rebuild your own life - which reminds me to ask you: Do you think that you have done more damage to others or to yourself? I wonder at what point I became an irreparable monster in the shape of a pot. LOL The damage I and others have done to me are something with which I must live. As to how extensive it is I don't yet know. Its been 7 years now studying Objectivism and I feel like a personal renaissance took place. I read Galts speech out loud and all at once. The whole novel was at the same time soothing and irritating. Now I wonder how I could ever have thought the way I did then. In the end I know what people believe is their own responsibility. I just wish I could get hold of them and tell them I was and idiot back then and would you please disregard everything I told you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iakeo Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 I wonder at what point I became an irreparable monster in the shape of a pot. LOL The damage I and others have done to me are something with which I must live. As to how extensive it is I don't yet know. Its been 7 years now studying Objectivism and I feel like a personal renaissance took place. I read Galts speech out loud and all at once. The whole novel was at the same time soothing and irritating. Now I wonder how I could ever have thought the way I did then. In the end I know what people believe is their own responsibility. I just wish I could get hold of them and tell them I was and idiot back then and would you please disregard everything I told you. Your self flagilation is disgusting. I have no tolerance for such self-sacrificial nonsense. If you're a good person, show it by being what you consider a good person should be. Period. The past is the past. We don't need your bid for pity, which is nothing more than self-righteous self agrandizement, which is the typical sign of the evangelist zealot. If you want to not be a self mutilating pity monger, simply stop it. I am indeed harch in my words, but if you have truly been "studying" objectivism you would have realised long ago that your wish to "rectify the so-called damage" you've done is nothing more than imposing the past (the not you now) on the present and future. To continue in this embarrassing train of action and thought is very VERY non- objectivist. Snap out of it, buckeroo..!! Get real and heal yourself with what you know is right. -Iakeo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 (edited) The question remains, how do I make amends for the harm I caused others? You can start by not writing all your posts in green text. Edited May 12, 2005 by Hal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosszValaki Posted May 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Your self flagilation is disgusting. [LOL. Love the verbiage. Its more like exfoliation than self flagellation but I see some truth in what your saying. Someone once told me that you have to spend as much time getting Christianity out of your system as you did putting it in. I have seven years of philosophical detoxing out of twenty years of infection. I guess I still come across as wearing a hair shirt and a mortification "Cilice" belt. BTW: I like green. "#336600" Thought I might mention it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Capitalist Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 To continue in this embarrassing train of action and thought is very VERY non-objectivist.I suppose you think that to continue in this embarassing train of pretentious self-righteousness is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosszValaki Posted May 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Maybe I can get rid of the "Self-mutilating pity monger" tone if I depersonalize the question and make it more general. You have made a mistake in your past that your sense of justice compels you to make amends for but there is no way to properly do so. In the context of this question the "proper method" is to contact a person that you have wronged but doing so is impossible. In the context of my amended context "wronged" means "to knowingly speak falsely." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 ... make it more general... That was funny! You have made a mistake in your past that your sense of justice compels you to make amends for but there is no way to properly do so.If there really is no way, then there really is no way. Be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Capitalist Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Now that kind of advice I can really agree with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iakeo Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 (edited) [LOL. Love the verbiage. Its more like exfoliation than self flagellation but I see some truth in what your saying. Someone once told me that you have to spend as much time getting Christianity out of your system as you did putting it in. I have seven years of philosophical detoxing out of twenty years of infection. I guess I still come across as wearing a hair shirt and a mortification "Cilice" belt. BTW: I like green. "#336600" Thought I might mention it. Hae ae ae..! Yeah....! A sense of humor..! That characteristic (behavior) will take you far, and keep your spirit alive during the trek. Glad you could see the point of my 'caustic" remarks. When someone actually GETS the point of harsh words, which is a more and more rare occurance these days, it brings me MUCH happiness and a feeling of closeness to the one who can smile back at my rude, yet pertinent, nonsense, which isn't nonsense at all. Excellent..! And,.. YES,.. you need to lose the scratchy shirt and uncomfortable belt. Objectively, what good do they do? Other than slow you down and force you to relive the unchangable past, when you should be moving forward,.. not suffering the past. Concentrating on that which hurt you gives it power. Sap it of it's power by finding something of value to obsess about. As you're going to obsess about SOMETHING anyway,.. it's obviously just in your nature. -Iakeo Edited May 13, 2005 by Iakeo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalism Forever Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 How do you seek forgiveness for having been a Christian? By earning forgiveness: by becoming a moral man, in thought, in action, as well as in screen name. (Hint: "rossz valaki" means "someone bad" in Hungarian!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosszValaki Posted May 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 By earning forgiveness: by becoming a moral man, in thought, in action, as well as in screen name. (Hint: "rossz valaki" means "someone bad" in Hungarian!) Its Hungarian for "The Evil One." Its a name I picked up arguing with Christians. "Oh no the Evil One is going to post!" Its not meant to be self abasing more along the line of a term of endearment. Ominous isn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
source Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 I wonder at what point I became an irreparable monster in the shape of a pot. LOL Sorry, the humor of this sentence escapes me. The damage I and others have done to me are something with which I must live. As to how extensive it is I don't yet know. Its been 7 years now studying Objectivism and I feel like a personal renaissance took place. I read Galts speech out loud and all at once. The whole novel was at the same time soothing and irritating. Now I wonder how I could ever have thought the way I did then.Mistakes happen. Some people do evil things by choice, but I think many do them because they know of no other way to deal with things. It's a shame that so many children grow up to be completely disillusioned by life and/or the world around them, and then not knowing how to deal with such a state they turn to any fictional entity which somehow seems to make things in "this world" (as if there is another one) seem meaningful to them. Oh, and I'm sure that they truly believe they have found the ultimate truth. But I do not think that they should be branded as evil because of this. Those who are evil will not budge from their position when someone beats them in an argument. They will instead come up with further rationalizations to "back up" their beliefs, or they'll simply resort to evasion. Those who are not evil, however, will abandon their belief when they listen to reason. It may not be easy, but they will. And you have. You yourself said that you found Atlas Shrugged both irritating and soothing. Irritating because, on a very deep level, it questioned your every belief and denounced it as evil (or at least almost every), and soothing because by doing so it gave you all the reason and reassurance you needed to know for certain that life on Earth IS WORTH LIVING! So, you should not waste a second more to brood over your past, or to feel bad about anyone who may have listened to you. If you do, you are falling into the same trap all over again. In the end I know what people believe is their own responsibility. I just wish I could get hold of them and tell them I was and idiot back then and would you please disregard everything I told you. This desire is an emotion. Emotions, by Objectivist theory, can be "programmed." When you think of all those people you've been teaching Christianity, simply remind yourself that there is no reason to feel bad about them. Or better yet, try to think of a valid reason why you SHOULD. There really is none. They live their lives and ultimately they decide what they believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 Sorry, the humor of this sentence escapes me. It is a reference to Ayn Rand's essay "The Comprachicos", reprinted in "The New Left". Ayn Rand says: When one judges that this has occurred and that the monster is made, one breaks the vase, the child comes out, and one has a man in the shape of a pot. (Victor Hugo, The Man Who Laughs, translation mine.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gags Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 You can start by not writing all your posts in green text. Honestly RosszValaki, the green is really hard for me to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
source Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 (edited) It is a reference to Ayn Rand's essay "The Comprachicos", reprinted in "The New Left". Thanks. I haven't read The Comprachicos, so I'll look it up. Edited to fix the quote tag. Edited May 14, 2005 by source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalism Forever Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 Its Hungarian for "The Evil One." Well I am not going to debate its exact meaning, but I still recommend switching to a more positive name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeganSnow Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 I'm moving this thread to the Introductions forum because it's really more interpersonal chatter (which is cool) than discussion of any general ethical principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosszValaki Posted May 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 I'm moving this thread to the Introductions forum because it's really more interpersonal chatter (which is cool) than discussion of any general ethical principles. I was going to ask you to do just that. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingok Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 (edited) How do you seek forgiveness for having been a Christian? I look at the question and it seems laughable but its something that has bothered me for a few years now. I was a Fundamentalist Christian. I was even an Evangelist for a few years. I Preached the Gospel and even led people to salvation. As I look back now I cringe at the things I did that at the time I felt where the height of morality. I would love to try to reverse the damage I caused to people but I have no way of contacting them even if I could change their minds again. I know that on some level they are responsible for what they believe but I did have an effect. I Preached even after I lost faith. At the time I felt I wasn't a good enough person to ever live as an Objectivist and I deserved Christianity. If someone gets AIDS from a promiscuous life it doesn't make the person they got it from bad unless the person knew they had AIDS. For almost a year I had Ayn Rand quotes in my head contradicting everything I Preached. It was intolerable. Its been a long road but I am finished struggling with reason and simply except it as all there is and have slowly come to love it. The question remains, how do I make amends for the harm I caused others? Thank the Lord (Metaphor!!!) that you realize the nature of your previous actions! Even asking this question, to begin with, atones for anything you may have done in the past in a major way... but not completely. Regardless of what principles you now hold, and how much you regret whatever you have done in the past, you cannot atone for an evasion of this magnitude. Yes, you have probably done a lot of harm because of it, much of it irreversible. Reverse whatever harm can be reversed. Don't ask anyone to forgive you, because such a massive evasion as deliberately preaching a contradiciton (after it has been realized as a contradiction) is not forgivable. But you do not have to "pay for" what you have done. Despite what you have done in the past, it now seems that you are a perfectly virtuous person, and that you have payed, in multiple ways, already. Here is the best way I think you can make ammends: if you know anyone personally who is a Fundamentalist Christian, or is going down the road you went down in some regard, try to steer them in the right direction. Tell them what they are doing wrong; do not spare their feelings. If you feel guilt, the best way of wiping it clean is to help to make the world guiltless. Take John Galt's oath: "I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Live by it! I salute your integrity! Edited June 12, 2005 by ingok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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