Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum
goldmonkee

Is Objectivism against drugs?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Drugs that are produced are not 'metaphysicaly given'.

Does this mean they don't exist?

Things or objects cannot be good or evil in and of themselves - whether they are found in nature or produced. Good or Evil is a moral judgement and it depends on the context of their use. Using heroin to evade reality is immoral, using it to fight the pain of end stage cancer is not.

Context.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Does this mean they don't exist?

No… the distinction is as follows:

Metaphysically given entities: A mountain, a tidal wave, a bolt of lightning, a forest, a cave, sunlight, etcetera.

As opposed to other entities like: a ski resort, a surfboard, a lightning rod, a log cabin, drawings on the wall of a cave, sun block, solar panels, etcetera.

The difference is the latter group was created by choice (by beings with free will), ergo it is subject to moral evaluation. You cannot morally evaluate a mountain, it is metaphysically given – there was never a choice for anyone on whether or not to create the mountain. The question "is a drug good or bad?" is part of a moral evaluation. It is a moral evaluation because some person made the choice to create it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Big Daddy recently educated the hoi polloi thus: "Drugs are good. Sex is good. 'Just say no' to life and pleasure is evil."

i'm not sure if this was a joke or not...if it isn't, then its probably the most hedonistic and irrational thing i've heard a person say on this forum.

Hedonistic I'll grant you. Irrational I'll fight you. What, pray tell, are you even talking about? :confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Drugs can't be good or evil. They merely exist. Pleasure is good if your values are intact. If pleasure ever harms you, there is something wrong with your values. Using drugs is evil if you use them to sacrifice your values, good if you use them to uphold your values.

Does using drugs conflict any of your values? Support them? You have to answer that before you can say whether drug use is good or bad.

I doubt many can claim exemption from vices, but none can objectively defend them as good.

I don't seem to be following along very well here. I thought my observation was non-controversial and obvious.

Sex and drugs and even violence (if you find the right bastard! :P ) are all pleasures and joys. They help us celebrate life -- and are an inherent goodness themselves. Sex and drugs should be indulged in and engaged in as much as possible. Of course, they are properly a suppliment and compliment to life, and shouldn't be allowed to take over or become central. They are, as it were, forever on the side. That said, folks, there're absolutely GREAT! :confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hedonistic I'll grant you. Irrational I'll fight you.

Rationality is a fundamental Objectivist virtue... not pleasure. Earlier in your post you implied that you were for life, well SexMachine that same attitude is why Objectivists choose reason over pleasure when making decisions. A rational person is someone who makes choices using on a set of hierarchical principles and values. A hedonist is someone who makes choices based on their pleasure pain mechanism.

It is fundamentally irrational to guide your life hedonistically. You cannot use reason to effectively pursue your life by subverting it to your pleasure pain mechanism. If this were true then it would be in a sadist’s rational self-interest to torture other people. It would be in everyone’s rational self-interest to partake in drugs and group orgies instead of going to work… funny how close that is to what you are advocating.

You are neither a consistent rational person nor a consistent hedonist - you are some boring compromise between the two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People will always seek out and indulge in drugs of all kinds. It's natural and totally biological in nature. As someone stated earlier its all "context". If we were talking about a hammer well it can be used as a screw driver, it can also be used in self defense , or murder. But its purpose is to drive in a nail. I hate anologies, why did I just write one.... :confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Big Daddy recently educated the hoi polloi thus: "Drugs are good. Sex is good. 'Just say no' to life and pleasure is evil."

Hedonistic I'll grant you. Irrational I'll fight you. What, pray tell, are you even talking about?  :confused:

The very fact that you admit this statement is hedonistic means it inherently cannot be rational..hedonism and reason do not go together. Granted, sex is good in a proper context. It is a culmination of value between two people with shared values. Ayn Rand call sex outside of this context a mere "wriggiling of meat". Having careless sex with people to "sow your oats" or "feel good" is immoral. Sex metaphyisical in that it brings into reality a higher level abstraction: love. Once again...but this time in Peikoff's words..no love without sex, no sex without love.

On to drugs...I don't care where they come from, metaphysically given or not, drugs are bad. They hinder sensory perception which is the basis for all proper epistemology. To impair your senses is to impair the very base of objectivity. how can you make proper desicions in an impaired reality? You can't. This is why people on LSD think they can fly.They can't, but an impaired sense of reality tells them they can.

About drugs being metaphysical...the world is full of natural poisons, would you like to try those out too? just because something is metaphysical doesn't mean its good to do.

Someone mentioned elephants eating rotten friut for a high...you're a human, they're animals, we are the most advanced species on the planet and you wish to imitate elephants? Animals lack volition and thus cannot make moral choices. We can. Drugs are bad.

Pleasure is good in the proper context, but to seek pleasure and deny reason is immoral.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
People will always seek out and indulge in drugs of all kinds. It's natural and totally biological in nature.

What is the difference between humans and other animals? Did evolution program us to take drugs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On to drugs...I don't care where they come from, metaphysically given or not, drugs are bad.

Controlling your body’s biochemistry not inherently bad. I can’t think of any drug that can’t be applied medically for a good purpose. My idea of a “bad” drug is one that doesn’t do what it is supposed to or one that is created to be used to immoral ends. The distinction between metaphysically given is the difference between a marijuana plant growing in the wilderness and marijuana plant growing in some teenager’s closet. The former pot plant just is; the latter plant is evil because it is a product of immoral actions. Granted the later plant could be of value to someone, but this does not change that it was not created as an objective value and neither will it be used to such and end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Controlling your body’s biochemistry not inherently bad.  I can’t think of any drug that can’t be applied medically for a good purpose.  My idea of a “bad” drug is one that doesn’t do what it is supposed to or one that is created to be used to immoral ends.  The distinction between metaphysically given is the difference between a marijuana plant growing in the wilderness and marijuana plant growing in some teenager’s closet.  The former pot plant just is; the latter plant is evil because it is a product of immoral actions.  Granted the later plant could be of value to someone, but this does not change that it was not created as an objective value and neither will it be used to such and end.

you're right...i should have made this distinction. good call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't seem to be following along very well here. I thought my observation was non-controversial and obvious.

Sex and drugs and even violence (if you find the right bastard!  :P ) are all pleasures and joys. They help us celebrate life -- and are an inherent goodness themselves. Sex and drugs should be indulged in and engaged in as much as possible. Of course, they are properly a suppliment and compliment to life, and shouldn't be allowed to take over or become central. They are, as it were, forever on the side. That said, folks, there're absolutely GREAT!  :)

So says the character who, in this thread on "ARI and TOC", defends Kelley as the one who is consistent with Objectivism and demeans the ARI and its supporters. This clueless creature would not be able to grasp an Objectivist principle if it banged him on his head. Someone, please, send him back to those with whom he belongs. (And also note how in that ARI/TOC thread GodlessCapitalist, dismissing what Ayn rand wrote 30 years ago as no longer applying, says there are libertarians are hippies no more! GodlessCapitalist, meet your libertarian friend BigDaddySexMachine, and reach out to him as you say we should do. :) )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GoodOrigamiMan writes:

<<Rationality is a fundamental Objectivist virtue... not pleasure. Earlier in your post you implied that you were for life, well SexMachine that same attitude is why Objectivists choose reason over pleasure when making decisions. A rational person is someone who makes choices using on a set of hierarchical principles and values. A hedonist is someone who makes choices based on their pleasure pain mechanism.>>

Actually, there's no conflict between reason and pleasure: they work in harmony and reinforce one another. Hedonists and everyone else who's remotely sensible make choices based on the pleasure/pain mechanism.

<<It is fundamentally irrational to guide your life hedonistically. You cannot use reason to effectively pursue your life by subverting it to your pleasure pain mechanism.>>

Who says I subvert it? Reason is always my fundamental guide and base.

<<You are neither a consistent rational person nor a consistent hedonist - you are some boring compromise between the two.>>

I sincerely doubt this. The great error here is supposing hedonism and reasonism conflict. Do eudaemonism and rationality conflict as well?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Megan Robinson writes:

<<...hedonism and reason do not go together...>>

This is a loose statement not really supported by the facts.

<<Ayn Rand call sex outside of this context a mere "wriggiling of meat". Having careless sex with people to "sow your oats" or "feel good" is immoral.>>

Rand's imagery is unpleasant. I don't exactly know what her logic is here, but it doesn't sound right to me...

<<Once again...but this time in Peikoff's words...no love without sex, no sex without love.>>

Is he telling me how I should live my life? As long as you like a person a bit or have a small commonality of values, sex can be very enjoyable -- at least in the short run. Often this is all someone wants or needs. Rand admitted as much to Peikoff himself(!). The implicit puritanism of Megan strikes me as unrealistic and somewhat sterile. Maybe she's overthinking this issue...

<<On to drugs...I don't care where they come from, metaphysically given or not, drugs are bad. They hinder sensory perception which is the basis for all proper epistemology. To impair your senses is to impair the very base of objectivity. how can you make proper desicions in an impaired reality? You can't.>>

No one is advocating becoming a wastoid or stoner. Certainly I'm not. As long as you employ some intelligence or planning, drugs are not a problem in life. Indeed, life is rather empty without them. Where's the fun or visceral celebration? Everyone also needs to bear in mind here that such recreational substances as coke and weed take effect and wear off relatively quickly with few or no ill effects. They aren't like alcohol. And they don't have long-term consequences like cigarettes.

Again, the key point here is to have self-discipline and use drugs to suppliment/compliment rational activity and the rest of life -- not to substitute for rationality and productive achievement.

<<Pleasure is good in the proper context, but to seek pleasure and deny reason is immoral.>>

This is a straw man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So says the character who, in this thread on "ARI and TOC", defends Kelley as the one who is consistent with Objectivism and demeans the ARI and its supporters. This clueless creature would not be able to grasp an Objectivist principle if it banged him on his head. Someone, please, send him back to those with whom he belongs. (And also note how in that ARI/TOC thread GodlessCapitalist, dismissing what Ayn rand wrote 30 years ago as no longer applying, says there are libertarians are hippies no more! GodlessCapitalist, meet your libertarian friend BigDaddySexMachine, and reach out to him as you say we should do.  :) )

Speicher excels at invective, sarcasm, and ad hominem attack. He's rather less impressive at rationality and actually making an argument -- even a lame one. He also seems to have appointed himself my special critic. I would politely suggest that he's in over his head here. I can't be moved by intellectual intimidation, and he doesn't seem to have much to offer in the way of reasoning or logic on any topic you can name.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Speicher excels at  ...

identifying the contradictory nature and lack of character of those who seek to appropriate the value of Objectivism while simultaneously promoting ideas and values that contradict it. You should be swept from this forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I very much doubt the validity of even having a thread like this (drugs and objectivism do not belong in the same universe, much less a discussion), but, I will say to any "potential" Objectivist who is struggling with, toying with, thinking about drugs (those that cause loss of focus and coherence), - DONT LIE TO YOURSELVES. Don't even pretend that you deserve to breathe the same air that Ayn Rand once breathed if you see any value in mind-altering drugs. *I am not talking about medication* If you want an anything-goes world, go out and join it. Reap its rewards! I will admit - deuces are wild these days. But you cant be a double agent here. You give yourselves away too easily. The TOC will accept you.The Libertarian Party will accept you. Any university will accept you. But real objectivists won't. A thread like this is like a gift, a sanction if you will, that you don't deserve. When I think that we discuss the defense of this country, constitutional issues, art, economics, and other important topics on this board, and then someone comes along, somewhat like a streaker, and says that drugs make the world more fun or interesting - why not just say what is obvious - you hate yourself and this world.

This is a sanctuary for many of us. I live in an area with about 600,000 people. I couldn't find 20 objectivists around here in a lifetime. I come to this board because I could meet 20 a day sometimes. Why are you and your ilk here?

I certainly dont want or care to have everybody agree with me. That would be an out-of-cotext and irrational desire. But there has to be a modicum of decency. I don't want to hear about your LSD trip - or any other similar whim. I can go to a local university coffee shop and watch the freakshow anytime I want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't seem to be following along very well here. I thought my observation was non-controversial and obvious.

Sex and drugs and even violence (if you find the right bastard!  :P ) are all pleasures and joys. They help us celebrate life -- and are an inherent goodness themselves. Sex and drugs should be indulged in and engaged in as much as possible. Of course, they are properly a suppliment and compliment to life, and shouldn't be allowed to take over or become central. They are, as it were, forever on the side. That said, folks, there're absolutely GREAT!  :D

Freebird,

dude

Ps. You are not following along very well most likely because of the drugs. It is a very simple topic, try to keep up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
… sex can be very enjoyable -- at least in the short run. Often this is all someone wants or needs. Rand admitted as much to Peikoff himself(!). The implicit puritanism of Megan strikes me as unrealistic and somewhat sterile. Maybe she's overthinking this issue...

This is enough for me to stop replying; you don’t deserve to be taken seriously and you have insulted a lady. I hope you leave this forum one way or the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I very much doubt the validity of even having a thread like this (drugs and objectivism do not belong in the same universe, much less a discussion), but, I will say to any "potential" Objectivist who is struggling with, toying with, thinking about drugs (those that cause loss of focus and coherence),  -  DONT LIE TO YOURSELVES.  Don't even pretend that you deserve to breathe the same air that Ayn Rand once breathed if you see any value in mind-altering drugs. *I am not talking about medication*  If you want an anything-goes world, go out and join it.  Reap its rewards!  I will admit - deuces are wild these days.  But you cant be a double agent here.  You give yourselves away too easily.  The TOC will accept you.The Libertarian Party will accept you.  Any university will accept you.  But real objectivists won't.  A thread like this is like a gift, a sanction if you will, that you don't deserve.  When I think that we discuss the defense of this country, constitutional issues, art, economics, and other important topics on this board, and then someone comes along, somewhat like a streaker, and says that drugs make the world more fun or interesting  - why not just say what is obvious - you hate yourself and this world. 

This is a sanctuary for many of us.  I live in an area with about 600,000 people.  I couldn't find 20 objectivists around here in a lifetime.  I come to this board because I could meet 20 a day sometimes.  Why are you and your ilk here?

I certainly dont want or care to have everybody agree with me.  That would be an out-of-cotext and irrational desire.  But there has to be a modicum of decency.  I don't want to hear about your LSD trip - or any other similar whim.  I can go to a local university coffee shop and watch the freakshow anytime I want.

Excellent post! Worthy of being repeated in whole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sex and drugs and even violence (if you find the right bastard!  :D ) are all pleasures and joys. They help us celebrate life --

Didn't notice this the first time. Violence helps to celebrate life?! If you find the right bastard? I know things like you, I work in a sports bar. There are always kids on Friday night that go out looking to topple someone for the shear "celebration" of it.

Even more than the glorification of drugs, violence as pleasure surely bars you from any sort of rational consideration. You believe in the pleasure of manipulating your own mind and then indulge in the irrational "joy" of knocking someone out of theirs with your fists.

You are precisely the thug that is the exact opposite of any Objectivist principle or even the rudiments of normal civilization.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Big Daddy Sex Machine:

You are an irrational moron. I'm sorry if my objective, proper, and moral view of life is too puritain for you. The fact is, you're just another sorry libertarian who adheres to the "good" part of objectivism. Intead of actually intergrating the system, you pick out the parts you like (out of context)and flaunt them egregiously. By the way...how dare you attack Stephen. He is one of the most rational people I have ever met on the internet or otherwise....anyone who attacks him better do a serious amount of thought and intergration before hand.

Yes, I am overthinking the issue...I always do...and always will...that is the nature of being a rational person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey BigDaddy:

Principles - those things which you decided were just a part of Objectivism you could leave out - are the reason i'm not going to be taking pleasure in violence on your person (even though you are the right bastard) for calling my lady a Puritan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey BigDaddy:

Principles - those things which you decided were just a part of Objectivism you could leave out - are the reason i'm not going to be taking pleasure in violence on your person (even though you are the right bastard) for calling my lady a Puritan.

You tell him! The guy is really pathetic; a perfect poster boy for the libertarians. Megan, and all of us, deserve better than that. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...