what to do about Israel/Palestine?

[Mammon]

Hey guys I had a few questions stemming another post on another forum.

Someone wrote this...

One thing that seems to have been left out of the blowback argument is our massive support for Israel and their occupation of Palestine. They came in sanctioned by western civilization, took over their “holy land”, set up an apartheid government and legal discrimination, and treated the rightful owners of the nation as second rate citizens. Now the middle east is not one unified country, but they are unified by the dominate religion, Muslim. They see the way their religious brothers are being treated and won’t stand for it. How would we like it if the Native Americans decided to take back their ancestral lands and a rich country or group of rich countries decided to give them billions in aid and weapons? Suppose they only decided to take back the states with names derived from Native American words. That’s about half of the U.S. What would the rest of the U.S. think of that? Would they say, ”Oh, well they have claim to those states, so I guess it’s ok.” No, there would be bloodshed all around. Granted the scenario is unlikely, since we are the strongest nation in the world, but as the strongest nation we have the responsibility to put our selves in the places of the other nations around the world to see where they are coming from. As Ron Paul said,” They don't come here and attack us because we're rich and we're free. They come and they attack us because we're over there.” And by supplying Israel we are basically "over there" even if we pull troops out of the middle east.

Also, how can we tell Iran that they can’t have nuclear weapons when we have the biggest stockpile in the world and their biggest enemy, Israel, is presumed to have nuclear weapons? Why not disarm everyone, or at least all the middle eastern countries, and not leave one country with them. I believe that if Israel would sign the non-proliferation treaty, it would go far towards peace in the middle east.

From what I gathered fromt this thread, the person quote above has many flaws in their thinking.

Israel isn't an apartheid government, and Palastien never existed as a state? Weren't the British the ones who had legitimate control over the area?

[The Guru Kid]

[quote name='DarkWaters' date='Jun 20 2007, 05:59 PM' post='150199

Leaving all discussions of protecting a trading partner aside (which I still think is legitimate spending in the present context of today), do you believe that forming a strategic alliance with another nation can ever be justified for the purposes of defense?

I agree, just look at what Saddam did with all of the military assistance that the United States provided during the Iran-Iraq War.

Of course not. But these are not necessary conditions for one nation to assist another in a war of self-defense.

A strategic alliance is only valid if the two parties share ideas and agree on a course of action. And since you don't think that Israel is stupid, shouldn't it be discussed first (with Israel that is). I don't think Israel needs help right now and at least not in the form of financial help to a fighting faction.

[The Wrath]

Hey guys I had a few questions stemming another post on another forum.

Someone wrote this...

From what I gathered fromt this thread, the person quote above has many flaws in their thinking.

Israel isn't an apartheid government, and Palastien never existed as a state? Weren't the British the ones who had legitimate control over the area?

Those are all pretty typical talking points from Cindy Sheehan-type activists. I don't usually bother responding to people who just regurgitate stuff like that. There are some intellectuals (like Chomsky) who make points that will make me pause and reevaluate my position on the Israel-Palestine situation, but none of those come anywhere close to meeting that threshold. The stuff in that post is somewhat akin to arguing against capitalism by saying "The people who own the means of production steal money from the workers." It's a sound-byte that is usually uttered in a vacuum, devoid of any supporting facts.

[DarkWaters]

And since you don't think that Israel is stupid, shouldn't it be discussed first (with Israel that is).

The United States should and it does.

I don't think Israel needs help right now and at least not in the form of financial help to a fighting faction.

Again, need (that is, being unable to win a war otherwise) is not a necessary condition for granting assistance to be moral.

[Robert J. Kolker]

Israel isn't an apartheid government, and Palastien never existed as a state? Weren't the British the ones who had legitimate control over the area?

What Britain had was a League of Nations Mandate to control an area, previously ruled by the Ottoman Turkish Empire. There was no Palestinian nation then, nor is there one now. The Palestinian Nation was concocted by the PLO in 1964, a bogus declaration of Nationhood recognized by no one at the time. I say bogus because the major part of the territory claimed as "Palestine" was ruled by Jordan until the end of the 1967 war. Jordan lost and they lost the territory they once ruled. That happens when a nation loses a war.

In the area recently unoccupied by Israel (Gaza and some portions of the West Bank) the Palestinians have been unable to govern. That further proves there is no Palestinian nation. If there were, they should be able to govern the territory they claim. What you have is Somalia style gang-warfare. In short, it is anarchy.

There is not now nor was there ever a Palestinian nation.

As to the Palestinian, the late Israeli foreign minister Abba Eben once said -- The Palestinians never lose an opportunity to lose an opportunity. That pretty well sums them up. They are incompetent and feckless at governing themselves and they do not have the least grasp of what is in their own best interest.

Bob Kolker

[The Wrath]

What Britain had was a League of Nations Mandate to control an area, previously ruled by the Ottoman Turkish Empire. There was no Palestinian nation then, nor is there one now. The Palestinian Nation was concocted by the PLO in 1964, a bogus declaration of Nationhood recognized by no one at the time. I say bogus because the major part of the territory claimed as "Palestine" was ruled by Jordan until the end of the 1967 war. Jordan lost and they lost the territory they once ruled. That happens when a nation loses a war.

In the area recently unoccupied by Israel (Gaza and some portions of the West Bank) the Palestinians have been unable to govern. That further proves there is no Palestinian nation. If there were, they should be able to govern the territory they claim. What you have is Somalia style gang-warfare. In short, it is anarchy.

There is not now nor was there ever a Palestinian nation.

As to the Palestinian, the late Israeli foreign minister Abba Eben once said -- The Palestinians never lose an opportunity to lose an opportunity. That pretty well sums them up. They are incompetent and feckless at governing themselves and they do not have the least grasp of what is in their own best interest.

Bob Kolker

Holy crap, you made an entire post that I actually agree with!

[The Wrath]

What Britain had was a League of Nations Mandate to control an area, previously ruled by the Ottoman Turkish Empire. There was no Palestinian nation then, nor is there one now. The Palestinian Nation was concocted by the PLO in 1964, a bogus declaration of Nationhood recognized by no one at the time. I say bogus because the major part of the territory claimed as "Palestine" was ruled by Jordan until the end of the 1967 war. Jordan lost and they lost the territory they once ruled. That happens when a nation loses a war.

In the area recently unoccupied by Israel (Gaza and some portions of the West Bank) the Palestinians have been unable to govern. That further proves there is no Palestinian nation. If there were, they should be able to govern the territory they claim. What you have is Somalia style gang-warfare. In short, it is anarchy.

There is not now nor was there ever a Palestinian nation.

As to the Palestinian, the late Israeli foreign minister Abba Eben once said -- The Palestinians never lose an opportunity to lose an opportunity. That pretty well sums them up. They are incompetent and feckless at governing themselves and they do not have the least grasp of what is in their own best interest.

Bob Kolker

Holy crap, you made an entire post that I actually agree with!

[Mammon]

Those are all pretty typical talking points from Cindy Sheehan-type activists. I don't usually bother responding to people who just regurgitate stuff like that. There are some intellectuals (like Chomsky) who make points that will make me pause and reevaluate my position on the Israel-Palestine situation, but none of those come anywhere close to meeting that threshold. The stuff in that post is somewhat akin to arguing against capitalism by saying "The people who own the means of production steal money from the workers." It's a sound-byte that is usually uttered in a vacuum, devoid of any supporting facts.

Yeah, except I don't know what to say when people regurgitate this on me. A simple "your wrong" won't work.

I guess the only thing to do is point out the facts...

[The Wrath]

My response would be: "You just proved that all you can do is regurgitate simplistic platitudes. You are not worth talking to."

However, if you want to actually argue with them, try the following indisputable facts:

They did not "steal" land. The land that became Israel had a clear Jewish majority, beginning as far back as the 1890's. And, furthermore, they didn't just move onto that land and claim it. It was legally purchased.

Then there's the fact that, as mentioned before, there has never been a nation called "Palestine." There isn't really even an ethnic group identifiable as "Palestinian." The so-called "Palestinians" are actually Syrians, by ancestry. People only started calling them "Palestinians" around the time of the first Intifada.