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TheEgoist

Inglorious Bastards

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To be honest I'm quite shocked and disappointed that people on this Objectivism forum are praising this film. But maybe so we can understand each other, someone could answer the following questions-

1. Could you please give an example of a (good) satire that used brutal violence against its subjects to ridicule them? And failing that, tell me how this film was good satire?

2. In the film the Nazis watch the Goebell's propoganda film 'National Pride' and they chuckle as allied soldiers get shot - because they are sadistic. So what exactly is the difference between Hitler and co. laughing at National Pride, and the real life audience laughing at the yet more brutal violence against the Nazi soldiers?

3. If I went to see a film composed mainly of racist jokes, would the fact of the jokes being clever/witty excuse the film and make it non-racist? And worthy of my praise?

1. Gargantua and Pantagruel, Don Quixote, A Tale of a Tub, and the Canterbury Tales

2. Because they are meant to feel pride at the killing of people fighting for freedom. Additionally the violence in that film is realistic and thus about the real world not a false one.

3. Who made every single racist joke? Let's see, was it members of the regime who conducted mass genocide on the basis of racism? It was? I wonder why that was? Maybe to demonstrate the end result of racism.

Traditionally there are two schools of satire. One is called satyra which comes from the satyr, a half beast, half man being of mythology. Its emphasis was on the beast in man. Now think back to the movie. In the beginning you have Landa making the comparison of the wolves and rats to the Nazis and Jews respectively, reducing both groups to beasts and the attributes of beasts. Later on you have a racist propaganda officer, who engages in sexual acts with a mistress and ignores all who are not of his race in a tribal, animalistic fashion. Also the Basterds hunt and kill the Nazis as if they were animals to further the characterization of them as such.

The movie was about how war and racism bring out the uncivilized animal in humans. They target and brutalize this and ridicule it as much as possible throughout the movie, thus satirizing it. It was a fairly correct satire although maybe not a good objectivist film because it depicted less than ideal beings often.

Edited by fountainhead777

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Well, I retort with the fact that the Nazi's 'ought' to have been killed in such a fitting manner.

Well what about this then

Director A makes a movie so he can show in graphic detail Army X torture and/or slaughter the people of Army Y

not very commendable, right?

Director B makes an identical movie, but at the beginning he inserts a scene of Army Y murdering the people of Army X, and he changes the Army Y insignia to a Swastika

Director B is, of course, Quentin Tarantino. And he's no more commendable than Director A

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Well what about this then

Director A makes a movie so he can show in graphic detail Army X torture and/or slaughter the people of Army Y

not very commendable, right?

Director B makes an identical movie, but at the beginning he inserts a scene of Army Y murdering the people of Army X, and he changes the Army Y insignia to a Swastika

Director B is, of course, Quentin Tarantino. And he's no more commendable than Director A

Do you know what a principle is?

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Not so. World War 2 was the last major war of the world and had a group of people with many normal human traits performing cruel and unusual things. That is why they were targeted. If the context didnt matter find another context and apply the exact same ideas me and others have discussed which are based on the context to it.

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not very commendable, right?

How can you say that? Everything depends on the moral context of which armies they are. The ending of this movie depicts the helpless panicked crowd of nazis in a crowded burning theater being machine-gunned when bombs go off. The only way that scene could be redeemed is if the victims were nazis, but they are. Does what happens to the nazis seem wrong to you? If so, you are the one who is wrong because they deserve it, they earned it.

The difference between Hitler cheering on the nazi sniper in the war film and the audience cheering on Hitler's death is the moral status of the audience, the sniper and Hitler. They are not all the same and it is baffling that you could forget that for an instant.

I don't have any illusions about Tarantino's moral stature or artistic vision. To him this is probably just an interesting example of relativism where the mass violence is acceptable in this movie genre. But that doesn't prevent me from enjoying the spectacle of "things as they ought to have been."

edit: spelling

Edited by Grames

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One last thing about Pulp Fiction-- Well, then, let's consider someone writing The Fountainhead before Rand did, but they didn't leave Roark in--- instead it's all about Toohey and the other slime, and the things that happen to them.

Voilá, you've just written the Architecture version of Pulp Fiction. It must be a classic.

At least it's witty!

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Except the characters were criminals and for that reason were scum. Man do you love to drop context. Tarantino depicts bad people at times, not favorably but they are in the situations they are in and work in the areas they are in because of their character. You cannot separate their character from any component of their being. Stop trying to.

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This makes me think that Tarantino wasn't really just reveling in violence. He wanted controversy and from the looks of it he got it. For cheap. The easiest most obvious way.

PKD

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This makes me think that Tarantino wasn't really just reveling in violence. He wanted controversy and from the looks of it he got it. For cheap. The easiest most obvious way.

PKD

You have not made your point. Make a comparable movie, and then you can say: there you go, it's that easy and obvious. Commenting on how something you have not done, and obviously could not do, is easy and obvious, is ridiculous.

There are a huge number of filmmakers who aim for controversy, and guess what: they don't spend months on sets, overworking 20 million dollar actors, and then 14 hour days in editing rooms, perfecting every little detail of their movie. They release unpolished crap, and get the controversy nonetheless.

The facts that some people don't like the end product, because it's not word for word an Ayn Rand novel, and others find it morally questionable to praise it, because it goes against some aesthetic values they are yet to mention, have no logical connection to the film-maker's intentions.

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You have not made your point. Make a comparable movie, and then you can say: there you go, it's that easy and obvious. Commenting on how something you have not done, and obviously could not do, is easy and obvious, is ridiculous.

LMAO! No, the comment above is ridiculous. It states that to have an opinion on a movie one needs to go out and make a movie. That's ludicrous.

PKD

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Awesome revenge fantasy. Justice is a value, and justice is done. Poetically.

Justice is the best life for the good and the non-existence of the evil. Sadism is not good.

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Justice totally wouldnt be ending a massive war over a year earlier, saving millions of lives and even more money, keeping Germany mostly intact after they surrender so that the Cold War doesnt start with as much hositility. All of this done by American soldiers and a jewish woman, whose family was killed by the nazis. That would not be justice. Especially because the majority of the so called sadists died in the theater or earlier on...

As far as I can tell you felt squeamish at the over the top, unrealistic violence used to target the ones being ridiculed and therefore throw out the word sadist because there was lots of blood. Meanwhile you do not justify your point any further and while we do you just kind of ignore it and yell Sadism!

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Justice is the best life for the good and the non-existence of the evil. Sadism is not good.

This is wrong on every count. Justice is judgement and action according to a moral standard. Punishing evil is as necessary as rewarding good. Turning your nose up at punishment is the same order of moral fallacy as strict pacifism towards all violence.

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LMAO! No, the comment above is ridiculous. It states that to have an opinion on a movie one needs to go out and make a movie. That's ludicrous.

You said it's easy and obvious. Doing something easy and obvious to become a millionaire is ludicrous?

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Is watching a scene of a child being abused aesthetically abhorrent? Even if the child is a young Hitler?

Is watching a scene of a woman being raped aesthetically abhorrent? Even if the woman is Magda Goebbels?

Is watching a scene of someone being mutilated aesthetically abhorrent? Even if the victim is a Nazi soldier?

Is watching a scene of a crowd of people undergoing extreme psychological horror before burning to death or being mowed down by indiscriminate machine gun fire abhorrent? Even if the crowd are members of the Nazi Party?

See a pattern emerging?

but this film invites the audience to revel in this type of aesthetic content. it is the aesthetic of sadism

how on earth is a scene where a bunch of men (the heroes) grin and laugh and cheer as a defenseless enemy is clubbed to death NOT an expression of sadism? if that isn't, what the heck is?

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Is watching a scene of a child being abused aesthetically abhorrent? Even if the child is a young Hitler?

Is watching a scene of a woman being raped aesthetically abhorrent? Even if the woman is Magda Goebbels?

Is watching a scene of someone being mutilated aesthetically abhorrent? Even if the victim is a Nazi soldier?

Is watching a scene of a crowd of people undergoing extreme psychological horror before burning to death or being mowed down by indiscriminate machine gun fire abhorrent? Even if the crowd are members of the Nazi Party?

See a pattern emerging?

but this film invites the audience to revel in this type of aesthetic content. it is the aesthetic of sadism

how on earth is a scene where a bunch of men (the heroes) grin and laugh and cheer as a defenseless enemy is clubbed to death NOT an expression of sadism? if that isn't, what the heck is?

No children were abused on screen so no idea where you are going with that.

She was not raped, she was a translator doubling as a mistress for the animalistic, racist, offensive Goebbels

The closest thing to this was the Swastika thing and I would guess that was a temporary pain then embarrassment for the rest of their lives with choices they made to violate the rights of others.

Seeing as they sanctioned and likely ordered the killing of millions they deserved death, maybe not in that manner but I do think ti interesting that the theater was turned into an execution chamber where they were killed by fire and bullets as were most executed jews.

The defenseless enemy could have given up the position of Nazi soldiers who were subjugating the French and been spared easily. Instead he insulted the Basterds and wanted to see them die. The death was over-the-top but then again that is what makes it unrealistic and helps to target things via satire.

I am starting to get the impression that the people ridiculing this movie dismissed it from the first and did not actually pay attention. We use details and analysis and you sue the word sadism and distortions.

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I wasn't talking about the plot of the film I was fabricating examples to make a point.

Don't you see it's got nothing to do with who 'deserved' what it's to do with the aesthetic - ie. separate from the moral dimension - of showing human suffering. Other films might involve human suffering but usually they avoid making light of it, they avoid showing it, or if they do then it's to have a negative effect (make the viewer empathize with terrified characters for instance). This film just presents graphic, horrific suffering for amusement

And I don't really see your satire reading. I mean, the Basterds behave like savages, so is he satirizing their desire for revenge? It doesn't seem to make very much sense as a satire beyond making the Nazis look quite stupid (which was really just very basic, unremarkable humour)

No children were abused on screen so no idea where you are going with that.

She was not raped, she was a translator doubling as a mistress for the animalistic, racist, offensive Goebbels

The closest thing to this was the Swastika thing and I would guess that was a temporary pain then embarrassment for the rest of their lives with choices they made to violate the rights of others.

Seeing as they sanctioned and likely ordered the killing of millions they deserved death, maybe not in that manner but I do think ti interesting that the theater was turned into an execution chamber where they were killed by fire and bullets as were most executed jews.

The defenseless enemy could have given up the position of Nazi soldiers who were subjugating the French and been spared easily. Instead he insulted the Basterds and wanted to see them die. The death was over-the-top but then again that is what makes it unrealistic and helps to target things via satire.

I am starting to get the impression that the people ridiculing this movie dismissed it from the first and did not actually pay attention. We use details and analysis and you sue the word sadism and distortions.

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The satire is about showing the animalistic tendencies in man when they war. How they kill arbitrarily and brutally for unsubstantial reasons, how they group together and become near-tribal instead of sticking to personal values and acting on those instead and protecting freedom. I have already listed the frequent animalistic tendencies among the nazis and how the Basterds hunt them as animals and do so brutally because of the nazis abuse of rights and murder of millions/

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I wasn't talking about the plot of the film I was fabricating examples to make a point.

Don't you see it's got nothing to do with who 'deserved' what it's to do with the aesthetic

Nonsense!

" My name is Lt. Aldo Raine, and I’m putting together a special team. And I need me eight soldiers. Eight – Jewish – American – Soldiers. Now y’all might have heard rumors about the armada happening soon. Well, we’ll be leavin a little earlier. We’re gonna be dropped into France, dressed as civilians. And once we’re in enemy territory, as a bushwackin’ guerilla army, we’re gonna be doin one thing, and thing only, Killin Nazi’s. The members of the Nationalist Socialist Party, have conquered Europe through murder, torture, intimidation, and terror. And that’s exactly what we’re gonna do to them. Now I don’t know about y’all. But I sure as hell, didn’t come down from the goddamn smoky mountains, cross five thousand miles of water, fight my way through half Sicily, and then jump out of a fuckin air-o-plane, to teach the Nazi’s lessons in humanity. Nazi ain’t got no humanity. There the foot soldiers of a Jew hatin, mass murderin manic, and they need to be destroyed. That’s why any and every son-of-a-bitch we find wearin a Nazi uniform, there gonna die. We will be cruel to the Germans, and through our cruelty, they will know who we are. They will find the evidence of our cruelty, in the disemboweled, dismembered, and disfigured bodies of their brothers we leave behind us. And the German will not be able to help themselves from imagining the cruelty their brothers endured at our hands, and our boot heals, and the edge of our knives. And the Germans, will be sickened by us. And the Germans, will talk about us. And the Germans, will fear us. And when the Germans close their eyes at night, and their subconscious tortures them for the evil they’ve done, it will be with thoughts of us, that it tortures them with. But I got a word of warning to all would be warriors. When you join my command, you take on debit. A debit you owe me, personally. Every man under my command, owes me, one hundred Nazi scalps. And I want my scalps. And all y’all will git me, one hundred Nazi scalps, taken from the heads of one hundred Nazi’s or you will die trying.

-Lt. Aldo Raine aka Aldo the Apache

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The satire is about showing the animalistic tendencies in man when they war. How they kill arbitrarily and brutally for unsubstantial reasons, how they group together and become near-tribal instead of sticking to personal values and acting on those instead and protecting freedom.

But it's the Basterds who do all the brutality. So the film was showing the animalistic side of the Allied troops and satirizing them?

There were only a couple of scenes where the Nazis lived up to the 'animalistic' tag - the start, obviously, and then when the Jew Hunter leaps across the room and throttles the actress-spy.

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