A is not B Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 It has occurred to me that although my ego is more self sufficient than most, I still can not honestly say that I'm not motivated by others. I'm at a point where I am reflecting upon my goals and motivations and discarding those that no longer mean anything to me as well as setting goals that are more in line with what I want. Then the question hits me: What do I want? I have found a surprising amount of my goals to be motivated by a desire to be "thought" great, rather than actually do anything great. For example, when at the gym I can always lift heavier when watched by others. When alone, my workouts are less intense, it seems I don't push myself as hard when in my own company alone. This is a problem to me, not only because I pay the price next week (no effort no strength gain,) but also because it terrifies me.to think that my psychology is jerked around by the "zombies" I disdain. Am I like them psychologically? Am I a second hander? Am I a zombie making fun of other zombies? How does one test for "secondhanderness?" How does one correct it? Off the top of my head, I would suggest to myself that training the mind is like training the body; it responds and adapts to demands placed upon it. When you want to train a muscle, you look at its function and make it "do that" against resistance. Well, I suppose virtue doesn't exists in a vacuum either. There is no strength apart from the action which requires it; there is no virtue separate from the action that requires it. To train virtue, look its function and make it "do that" against resistance. If a self sufficient ego is a virtue, what is its function? To my mind a self sufficient ego allows one to draw motivation and courage from within and for oneself instead of from and for others. So, if I were going to train it based on function against resistance, I would purposefully perform tasks alone, tasks that I would have a tendency to perform well on only if I had an external motivation and then... TELL NO ONE. Because doing something great and then posting it all over Facebook to get the approval and envy of others is exactly NOT having a self sufficient ego. Hmmm... I feel like something is missing from my thinking. There's something I'm overlooking. I can't quite place it though. I wonder if even asking this forum for its thoughts on my life is itself an example of secondhandedness? What are your thoughts? (My hypocrisy knows no bounds :-) ) Harrison Danneskjold 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A is A Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 No, asking for help or assistance is not second-handed, unless you have some ulterior motive, like feeling superior. Besides the very good question, "what do I want?", the next important quesiton to ask to untangle issues is "what do I value?" Unresolved conscious and subconscious issues ultimately result from some goal that you are pursuing. If you can identify that goal, that value, and then ask your self, "what would happen if I didn't value that?" you'll find your way to achieving self-sufficiency. A is not B 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Buddha Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 You're asking a lot of good, honest questions. But my advice would be to stop being so harsh on others, and realize that they too are searching for answers, each in their own way. I've got 22 + years experience in architecture -- with training and applied experience in geotechnical, structural, civil, electrical, mechanical, pluming, refrigeration, traffic, acoustical engineering, etc. and have worked for two years as a General Contractor. And yet... I am VERY aware of just how much I don't know -- and how much others bring to the table. And while most people may not be able to argue the fallacies behind Thomism, they are, as a rule, honest and trustworthy. No one that I've ever met has ever viewed them self as a zombie. It you are truly smarter than others, then use your intelligence to guide them and direct them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epistemologue Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) good question. i have thought about this stuff, too. i think that is a natural part of what we want. if it's your primary focus or source of value, i think you have a problem. you should ultimately be self-sufficient, being able to enjoy your experiences and work in and of themselves. but having a desire to share that experience and to talk about your work, etc, seems quite natural and enhancing to the original value. in fact, i think an exclusive, romantic relationship in particular is fundamental to a lot of value in life. i don't think there's anything second-handed or co-dependent about making that a very important part of your goals/motivations. you mentioned working out... reminds me of part of what Henry Rollins said, "Strength is understanding that your power is both physical and emotional. That it comes from the body and the mind. And the heart. Yukio Mishima said that he could not entertain the idea of romance if he was not strong. Romance is such a strong and overwhelming passion, a weakened body cannot sustain it for long. I have some of my most romantic thoughts when I am with the Iron. Once I was in love with a woman. I thought about her the most when the pain from a workout was racing through my body. Everything in me wanted her. So much so that sex was only a fraction of my total desire. It was the single most intense love I have ever felt, but she lived far away and I didn't see her very often. Working out was a healthy way of dealing with the loneliness. To this day, when I work out I usually listen to ballads." Edited September 15, 2014 by epistemologue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iudicious Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 It sounds a little bit like you may be confusing being motivated by others with having other's as your sole end goal/purpose. It's not bad to be motivated by others, or even to want to impress other people - especially if those people mean something to you. What IS bad and IS unhealthy is for your sole purpose to be about other people. Do you work out because you want to be healthier, feel good about yourself, et cetera, or do you do it because you want other people to see you as healthy and strong? There's a pretty strong distinction there, and THAT'S where it matters. Humans are social animals. We draw strength and support from our friends and our families, and even from just the people around us. Using that to motivate you, to get you to push harder, is in no way bad. What is bad is when you make other people your end goal or you start seeing other people as a means to an end. fourtytwo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 When alone, my workouts are less intense, it seems I don't push myself as hard when in my own company alone. Maybe you should imagine that someone you want to impress is watching If external factor XYZ is causing you to do good things, it may not be a problem. OTOH, if it is causing you to do bad things, then it is a problem. ["Good" and "bad" here being the things you rationally have judged to be your interest or not.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourtytwo Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 I don't think anyone can consistently fight half a million years of evolution to become totally unselfconscious all the time therefore you *have* to accept reacting to being watched - but in a good way as post #5 above by Ludicious describes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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