softwareNerd Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 By softwareNerd from Software Nerd,cross-posted by MetaBlog "The Reformation" spread across Germany and Scandinavia around 1530. In the 1530's, Henry VIII had famously broken with the Catholic Church. Though he do so partly because he wanted a divorce, he probably could not have done so without the numerous English noblemen and clergy who agreed with the ideas of the Reformation, and wanted change for their own reasons. About 30 years later, Mary Queen of Scots abdicated her throne in the face of the Scottish Reformation. Super-fast revolution: What amazes me is this: Martin Luther nailed his "95 Treatises" to a church door in 1517. Just 20 years, saw change across many countries. How did it spread so fast? Were people so angry about the existing corruption and the status-quo? Many noblemen saw the reformation as a way to increase their local political power: was role did this play compared to the intellectual argument? I need to get a good book about the history of the Reformation. Marx and Russia: Karl Marx published the "Communist Manifesto" in 1848. The Russian revolution took place 70 years later, in 1917. Since Communism wanted to overthrow the church, the rulers, and the middle class, it is not surprising that it took longer than the Reformation, even though it occurred in a time when ideas travelled more quickly. A picture: Here are time lines for Luther and Marx, with Rand thrown in as a bonus. Notice how rapidly Luther's ideas took hold. Also, when a young Objectivist is pessimistic, tell him that we've got till 2026 if we go at the pace of the Communist revolution! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juxtys Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Also, when a young Objectivist is pessimistic, tell him that we've got till 2026 if we go at the pace of the Communist revolution! 2026-2009=17. So, we should have it after 17 years? I am 17 right now so it makes me be 34 years old when I reach this, if we can trust your math. So I can freely hope to see Objectivist revolution before getting old? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James I Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Since Communism wanted to overthrow the church, the rulers, and the middle class, it is not surprising that it took longer than the Reformation Yet Communism was a more consistent form of altruism and (to paraphrase Rand) the most consistent form of an idea wins. Objectivism is even more radical than Communism because it seeks to overturn millennia of altruism, so my guess is that our revolution will take longer than the other two events mentioned in this topic. How much longer? I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greebo Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yet Communism was a more consistent form of altruism and (to paraphrase Rand) the most consistent form of an idea wins. Objectivism is even more radical than Communism because it seeks to overturn millennia of altruism, so my guess is that our revolution will take longer than the other two events mentioned in this topic. How much longer? I don't know. Christianity took hundreds of years to gain widespread acceptance. Being far more rational and anti-establishment, I would be shocked if we see any explosion in growth in this century. I'd also be somewhat worried if we did see one, because such an explosion would imply to me that the acceptance was more of a fad, unaccompanied by the fundamental understanding and acceptance of the real basis of Objectivism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Candidly, I added the Ayn Rand time-line more as an after-thought. I was mainly trying to picture Protestantism vs. Communism. A movement may never take root, ever. So, average time is not too helpful. I'm still curious how Protestantism spread so fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'kian Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I'm still curious how Protestantism spread so fast. For one thing because of the recent invention of the printing press. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juxtys Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 For one thing because of the recent invention of the printing press. ... And Objectivism may spread due to invention of the Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluey Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Do you think it's really possible for Objectivist ideas to take hold through revolution? I've been thinking about this. America was able to establish ideals of freedom and individual rights because it was a new land - they needed a system of distribution for land that was basically up for grabs. For Objectivism to take hold through revolution, millions of people would need to willingly give up the "advantages" of political altruism, and since the majority of individuals benefit more than they lose (or appear to - most people benefit from roads and schools and only pay a small portion, while large companies and producers pay disproportionately to provide those services) I just can't see how, without some sort of societal collapse where those goods are non-existent, you could convince enough people to "do the right thing" rather than "get free stuff". It almost seems like it would necessarily have to happen through a Gult's Gulch type of strategy - enough Objectivists buy land in the same place and refuse to receive any advantage from or pay any taxes to the government, using their own resources to defend the area (basically claim sovereignty, set up their own proper government). I mean it would be their land, they'd have bought it and have deeds, the only way the government could get anything from them would be by a direct initiation of force. Then perhaps by example the majority could see that this is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) Do you think it's really possible for Objectivist ideas to take hold through revolution?I think you're asking about something that is primarily an intellectual revolution. If so, I would answer "yes". All my colleagues at work are non-Objectivists. While many of them support the GOP or the Democrats on various issues, I don't think many of them want to be moochers. Most people want to do "the right thing", even if they disagree with us about what the right thing is. That is where we have to convince them. Change the epistemology and morality, and the politics will come along, wagging its tail. Edited January 13, 2009 by softwareNerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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