Freedom Vs Education

[Tonix777]

Orthodox Objectivism maintains that:

"The basic social principle of the Objectivist ethics is that no man has the right to seek values from others by means of physical force—i.e., no man or group has the right to initiate the use of physical force against others. Men have the right to use force only in self-defense and only against those who initiate its use. Men must deal with one another as traders, giving value for value, by free, mutual consent to mutual benefit. The only social system that bars physical force from human relationships is laissez-faire capitalism. Capitalism is a system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which the only function of the government is to protect individual rights, i.e., to protect men from those who initiate the use of physical force." Thus Objectivism rejects any form of collectivism, such as fascism or socialism. It also rejects the current "mixed economy" notion that the government should regulate the economy and redistribute wealth"

I am an Objectivist (probably a Neo-Objectivist whatever this loose term means) but I was born in a country with a "mixed" quite socialized economy and I am a product of its public education and health systems without which my middle-low class family probably couldn't have had the possibility to afford my education and proper grown up when I was a child...

If I unreservedly support the Ayn Rand's doctrine of a full laissez-faire capitalism, am I going against my own historical survival as living organism?

It is probably a question that I will never be able to answer in the same way that nobody knows if Ayn Rand would have been the same person if she wouldn't have been educated in the Leningrad State University of the disappeared USSR. And when I say "the same person" I mean the same rational mind and the same hate against the socialism which she was a product of, the same hate that latter in her life impulsed her mind toward individualism and finally created the conditions for the discovery of Objectivism.

Destiny exists: It is what already happened...

Needless to say that in the big picture I support capitalism as (until now) the only political system capable of fully defending individual rights, and the freedom to grow based of your own effort and intelligence

But there is a detail in which I have some doubts about a full totally unregulated laissez-faire capitalism: Children

Almost every book, essay and principles of Objectivism are addressed to "persons" to men, to a man or better "the" Man, you, I.

Did you note that in Ayn Rand's novels there are almost no children?

So my central question is: Are children really "persons" in the full philosophical sense of the word about what Objectivism speaks?

Are they free to choose? Are they capable of bearing total responsibility for their acts? Can they be left to their own effort?

In any case at which age?

From my very personal point of view a person doesn't born as a person, it takes a process to become a person

This is by the way the main reason why I am not against abortion: an unborn baby is not yet a person in the total sense of the word, he is a "promise" for a future person.

Anyway at some hard-to-define point between 10 and 20 years old a child become a man depending on his life's circumstances, it is a slow gradual process that takes years to happen, from the very moment of the birth until you are capable to face existence by your own.

In fact in most countries the law says that you are some kind of "property" of your parents until at least 15 years old or more.

In most modern western cultures by example you are nor free to choose even the color of your shoes until you are 8 or 10 or your religion until you are 12, nor your high-school, your ideas, or your bedroom until you are 14 or more, and your parents are responsible for your crimes in front of the law until you are 16 or 18.

So it is reasonable letting these "persons-to-be" only in the hands of their parents? Are potentially bright children "guilty" of the eventual low capacity, poor educational level, or laziness of their parents?

On the other side it is reasonable that parents are full "proprietors" of their children? That they decide all about them from type of education to diet? I don't know if it "reasonable" but it seems to be fair, since children are born only by their decision, their desire, their sole responsibility and right. And after the children are born and for several years parents are the only supporters of their lives with their own effort hope and sometimes sacrifices. So it seems parents have earned the right and freedom to decide over their children's future, but for sure in modern societies this freedom shouldn't be the same unlimited kind of freedom that people have to decide about any other of their properties, since children are potentially and progressively persons, men.

What can then do a capitalist system or government in order to balance this delicate equation?

And first of all should the government do anything at all about this?

In my opinion yes: Government should find the way to guarantee to these persons-in-formation gradually the same individual rights that must guarantee to grown men, including the fundamental right of freedom and defense against unjustified aggression of others.

But what freedom could there be in modern societies without education? I have always associated very closely freedom with knowledge. So I deeply believe that government should encourage an facilitate (not guarantee by law) the access of children to knowledge and education that from my point of view is probably the best form to guarantee their future freedom, and the best bet in order to ensure the continuity of the free capitalist system itself over the centuries

Edited May 5, 2010 by Tonix777

[softwareNerd]

... I am a product of its public education and health systems without which my middle-low class family probably couldn't have had the possibility to afford my education and proper grown up when I was a child...

A fairly decent education can come at a reasonable price: witness the type of education available to the lower-middle class in India. Mostly, what it takes is about 1/25th of a middle-class teacher's salary, a not-too-crowded room, some used text-books, and some stationery. That will take a kid through most of K-12.

Personally, helping particularly bright kids of poor people get a great education would be one of my top charitable priorities. Education (along with healthcare) has always attracted charity. Still, if you did not want to spend your money on charity for bright kids, you're free not to do so. The existence of a bright child does not impose either a moral or a legal obligation upon you.

[Tonix777]

A fairly decent education can come at a reasonable price: witness the type of education available to the lower-middle class in India. Mostly, what it takes is about 1/25th of a middle-class teacher's salary, a not-too-crowded room, some used text-books, and some stationery. That will take a kid through most of K-12.

Well... A "fairly decent" education in NYS can be something quite different in price than in India, but with all the distortion already introduced by the intervention of the Government in the education environment/market it would be almost impossible to know how would be the panorama without public education in the US. I live in NYS in a very high quality public school district and my daughter (13) goes to public Middle School here. But going sideways in the topic I am still very concerned about the real "quality" or level or contents of the education today, public or private.

They teach a lot of of stuff, values and points of view that I don't completely share or sometimes don't share at all. And the methods of teaching are also quite suspicious for me to be not very effective in forming an adequate conceptual mind in our children. But this is another topic anyway.

I am just reading an essay from Leonard Peikoff about this topic, it is an old essay but probably still quite valid in the present which makes me even more suspicious and concerned about the education that my kids will receive...

Fortunately I still believe that the biggest part of a child education begins at home. I am also thinking in sending my 2 years old son to some Montesori early school that is probably closer to Objectivism

[ToyoHabu]

The possibility of children being poorly educated by their parents does not constitute a valid reason to appropriate my resource be it money(tax) or time(national service). The question to ask is does failure to provide an education constitute the use of force or fraud. It is very irrational to not ensure the best possible education to your kids for a variety of reasons, since they are going to be involved in your future directly or indirectly.

[Tonix777]

The possibility of children being poorly educated by their parents does not constitute a valid reason to appropriate my resource be it money(tax) or time(national service). The question to ask is does failure to provide an education constitute the use of force or fraud. It is very irrational to not ensure the best possible education to your kids for a variety of reasons, since they are going to be involved in your future directly or indirectly.

Totally agreed, but what about parents that don't care about their children? My point is that children "belong" to their parents but at the same time they are persons in development who are not capable of self-support or to take proper decisions by themselves.

Who protects them from force or fraud if this comes from their own parents?

So to me childhood is a grey area probably not covered extensively enough by Ayn Rand. Leaving all children "alone" to their own good or bad luck in the roulette of life is probably not in the best interest of any society, and I mean society as the sum of all individuals constituting it