Relationships With A Devout Objectivist

[hopelessinlove]

My current boyfriend and I have just celebrated our 1st anniversary. He was out to visit me from across the country. We met on the internet and I live on the west coast and he on the east. It's been an amazing year for me. He's my first boyfriend and the first person I met who was so honest and true to himself. He really was...is like a breathe of fresh air from rigid social expectations and all that good stuff. I love him dearly.

The problem comes from combining him into my current life. This being his first time out to California he wasn't able to gradually work his way into everything like my family, my friends, etc. It's been difficult for both of us. Actually, the only reason it's been difficult for him is because I keep getting upset over things he doesn't think are important.

While he was here I tried to share my favorite things with him. He didn't care much for some of the places. I wasn't sure that he would but I wanted to try. These were places that meant something to me. Places I've always had fun with growing up or places that interest me. He's always talking about everything he doesn't like though. Honestly I'd rather not hear about it all the time. I would be much more content knowing he doesn't care for the place and we move on but usually he says things like "Why would they do that? That's stupid.......this is awfull......etc..." It's difficult for me when I want him to be a big part of me life and I get upset when I'm trying to do these things with him.

He wasn't always polite with my family either. I don't expect him to love them or even to like them. But I care about them and when he upsets them by being rude it also hurts me. Again I'm upset by the situation and he's upset that I care. I've tried telling him why I like my family....my reasons....why they make me happy. But he says that since he doesn't share those reasons it's something he then doesn't like about me.

I told him I was going to post something on an Objectivist forum for advice and he told me the results would depend on the way I explained it. To be as honest as I can about this situation I'll include how he said he would explain it:

He cares a lot about being honest and if he's in a situation where people think something of him that's not true he will tell them the truth. It upsets him that they would be upset by him telling the truth. He isn't going to be nice to people unless he cares about them personally.

He isn't going to change.....I don't want to stop caring about the people I care about.....and we both love each other and want to live with each other...

Please please PLEASE is there any advice someone could offer?

Edited March 29, 2005 by hopelessinlove

[Richard Roark]

First off, context is important since this is your first post it would be nice to first introduce yourself properly. No body will be able to help you if you don't provide proper context. Are you an Objectivist or is your boyfriend the Objectivist. Are you interested in Objectivism and if so what books have you read about Objectivism. IF you aren't an Objectivist, then what are you? This isn't a place where people are here to solve life problems, though discussion will ensue and advice given normally if a question is honest and knowledege is what is being sought.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Richard Roark

[hopelessinlove]

First off, context is important since this is your first post it would be nice to first introduce yourself properly. No body will be able to help you if you don't provide proper context. Are you an Objectivist or is your boyfriend the Objectivist. Are you interested in Objectivism and if so what books have you read about Objectivism. IF you aren't an Objectivist, then what are you? This isn't a place where people are here to solve life problems, though discussion will ensue and advice given normally if a question is honest and knowledege is what is being sought.

My boyfriend is an Objectivist and I am both studying it and working on practicing it in my life. I'm interested in it and right now the only experience I've had with it has been through him and the bits of Ayn Rand. I started Fountainhead but had to stop when I got too busy. He's just lent me We the Living so that will be my next project.

I'm sorry if I sounded too much like one of the writers you see in the Ask Alice columns but I am both interested in possible advice for this situation and in learning more about Objectivism and how social situations like this tie into Objectivism.

Edited March 29, 2005 by hopelessinlove

[Richard Roark]

Okay thanks for the context, also if you will kindly review the Forum Rules, you will note that proper grammar is to be expected. Objectivism and Objectivist are always capitalized terms as well as any term that would normally be capitalized. Also if you would you can post an introduction on the Introductions page.

[Pony Girl]

We met on the internet and I live on the west coast and he on the east.

My husband and I also met online, and lived halfway across the country from each other. The Internet is a great place to meet like-minded people.

I don't think anyone really needs to give you advice. You just need a definition and some introspection.

Here's the definition: Love is a recognition of your own highest values in another person.

Now keep that in mind and look at what you wrote.

While he was here I tried to share my favorite things with him. He didn't care much for some of the places.

I keep getting upset over things he doesn't think are important.

He wasn't always polite with my family either. I don't expect him to love them or even to like them. But I care about them and when he upsets them by being rude it also hurts me.

Is your family a value to you? How does he feel about that value?

But he says that since he doesn't share those reasons it's something he then doesn't like about me.

Do you share the same values? What is he saying when he tells you this?

He really was...is like a breathe of fresh air from rigid social expectations and all that good stuff.

He's always talking about everything he doesn't like though. Honestly I'd rather not hear about it all the time.

Are we talking about the same person?

He cares a lot about being honest and if he's in a situation where people think something of him that's not true he will tell them the truth. It upsets him that they would be upset by him telling the truth. He isn't going to be nice to people unless he cares about them personally.

There's a difference between being honest and being rude. Some people are rude and claim it's "just honesty" when really it's an attempt to make up for their own insecurities by insulting other people. You can be honest without saying a word.

He isn't going to change.....I don't want to stop caring about the people I care about.

He may or may not change... but you can't change him. It looks like you know that. Clearly, you are very disappointed because you were hoping he would share your values and he didn't. Loving someone doesn't mean giving up your values. Go introspect. Think about what you value in him, what you don't value, what values you share, what you don't share. Then evaluate how important they are. I won't tell you it's easy - it's not - but only you can make the decision of what's important to you.

[ex_banana-eater]

"You can be honest without saying a word" is absolutely correct. He dosn't need to confront people and tell them why he thinks they're stupid all of the time. Think of an extreme situation and try to apply his rediculous principle:

Imagine I am being introduced to a new person, and I notice he has an enormous nose. There is no selfish reason for me to anounce "Wow, you have a gigantic nose!" to him. Sure it's honest, but saying nothing is honest and is likely the rational thing to do.

[Inspector]

I would be much more content knowing he doesn't care for the place and  we move on but usually he says things like "Why would they do that? That's stupid.......this is awfull......etc..." It's difficult for me when I want him to be a big part of me life and I get upset when I'm trying to do these things with him.

This, at least, I may be able to shed some light on. It is born from a form of intellectual honesty. A desire to know the truth. It's not enough to simply say, "well, that's bad." If something is really and truly bad, then it's important to understand "Well... if it's so bad, then why is it here? Why is it allowed to continue? If people can't see that this is bad, what else can't they see is bad? Is there an underlying CAUSE for their failure to see its badness, and if so, will that be a threat to me in the future?"

Your regular average dope will just shrug and conclude that maybe other people simply CAN'T be understood, at least not by him. Your boyfriend, at least, has not given up on understanding the world. You have to like that.

I can tell you that I have been known to act like the above quote and those are the reasons that I act like that. I can't say with complete certainty that your boyfriend is the same way.

The measure of his honesty will be once he follows one of those thoughts to its end. If the thing is not in fact THAT bad, or it is caused by a basically honest or good motivation, then he will change his opinion of it. Perhaps even learn to enjoy it. (unless he's been traumatized by some aspect of it, or something!) If he's truly honest, he'll be willing to change his mind once he has found a reason to.

The critically important part is to NEVER deny him this reason. Never expect him to "warm up" to something on faith or without having reasoned matters out. It may be tedious, but it is rewarding in the end.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Inspector

[Inspector]

As for the rest, I don't really have enough data to say whether he's just being honest, or being rude. I don't know whether he's practicing integrity by disliking your family, or just being a jerk. Hard to say, and from your description, either is possible.

[KevinD]

Please please PLEASE is there any advice someone could offer?

What kind of advice are you seeking? Confirmation that being an obnoxious, insensitive brat is somehow in line with Objectivism?

Based on what you wrote, either this guy has no idea what honesty actually means — or he's deliberately twisting it into a rationalization for some truly revolting, anti-social behavior.

There's no "commandment" in Objectivism which says that a person must always speak his mind in any and every situation. The virtue of honesty doesn't mean announcing one's assessment of everything one encounters, regardless of other people's feelings or other negative consequences that may result.

Honesty is a corollary of rationality: Rationality is the recognition of reality, and honesty is the refusal to fake reality. By "reality," I don't mean merely one narrow aspect or fact of reality, but all relevant facts pertaining to a given situation; the full context, as we Objectivists are fond of saying.

To drop this context, and to act blindly, without cognizance or concern for the consequences of one's actions, is about as irrational — and dishonest — as you can get.

He isn't going to be nice to people unless he cares about them personally.

Well he's been a monumental jerk toward you — what does that tell you?

More importantly, though, is this kind of behavior OK with you?

You said yourself that he's not going to change — while at the same time saying that you love him very much, and even want to move in with him.

Again, what kind of advice are you looking for? Are you hoping to hear that the problem is not with him, but with you? Do you want someone to tell you that if you just keep reading Ayn Rand, eventually you'll come to see why attacking and insulting the values of one's romantic partner is perfectly wonderful? Do you want someone to say that you're just going through a minor rough patch, that everything will work out, and that the two of you will live happily ever after?

Are you really seeking advice at all — or are you just trying to express and make sense of a lot of very mixed-up feelings right now?

You say that you recently celebrated a one-year "anniversary" with this guy — yet he has only recently come to see you for the first time, and in fact lives on the other side of the continent. How much time have the two of you spent together, in each other's actual physical presence, over the last year? How many different, real-life activities have you engaged in together?

Or has this been a relationship conducted primarily through Instant Messages, E-mail, and perhaps the occasional phone call?

I have a sneaking feeling you know exactly what your problem is: You don't really know this guy, and you've recently had to face that fact in a very unpleasant way. Yet you feel like you're in love with him. You WANT to be in love with him. His behavior not only hurts and offends you, it shocks and worries you — he never acted this way in your fantasies. There's a conflict going on in your mind between who he is, and what you've imagined him to be.

Be honest yourself: If your guy had exhibited this kind of behavior on a first date, would there have been a second?

Edited March 29, 2005 by Kevin Delaney

[TomL]

It upsets him that they would be upset by him telling the truth. He isn't going to be nice to people unless he cares about them personally.

Contradiction! If it upsets him that they would be upset, then he does care about them. If it didn't upset him to see whatever injustice he thinks he sees, he wouldn't bother mentioning it at all.

First off, I would like to say that I am not a therapist, and no one here is likely to give very specific advice because they are not therapists either. If you want specific advice, steer clear of psycho-therapy and go straight to cognitive therapy. You can find such a therapist at The Academy of Cognitive Therapy.

Having said that, I do have some general ideas that largely depend on the answers to some questions. How old are you, how old is your boyfriend, and how long has he been an Objectivist? Are you still in school? Is he? Does he have an established career? Is it what he wants to do with his life? What about you?

These may not seem like important questions and possibly even insulting if you try to guess my purpose for asking, but I believe they hold tremendous context and we cannot properly approach this situation without the answers.