Request For Assistance With Live Chat

[TomL]

Due to the success of the #Objectvist channel over the past few weeks, I think it is time to get the channel registered so that we can maintain control of it and keep it away from those who would deny us a place of our own. Recent events in the Undernet IRC network have brought this to the forefront and made it urgent. (Bearster has lost control of his channel, #aynrand. I do not condone or sanction in anyway the theft of his channel, and am looking for help in preventing the same thing from happening to me).

What I need in order to register the channel for channel service with the IRC network is to have 10 people electronically "register" their support for my IRC channel during a specific 3-day period that begins when I ask for the registration, and additionally log into the channel service and join the channel during the same period.

So, I'm looking for anyone willing to help. I will help anyone willing set up IRC software, register for the channel service, and show them how to support my application for registration, so knowledge of all of these steps is not necessary. All that is necessary is a willingness to help and a few minutes of your time during a 3-day period yet to be determined.

An overview of the steps involved are:

1) Install IRC software on your computer if you don't have it

2) Go to http://cservice.undernet.org/live/ and click on Register!, and create an account

3) During the 3-day period yet to be determined:

a. use the IRC software to connect to Undernet

b. use IRC commands to log into X (the channel service) before joining the channel

c. join the channel, #Objectivist

That should do it. If anyone is willing to help, please go to the website http://cservice.undernet.org/live/ and create an account. PM me with your chosen username for that account so I can list it on my application. I'll then give you whatever help you need to set up the software and teach you how to log in correctly so your support will be counted. Thanks!

[Pony Girl]

Replying to keep the thread on the list of recent posts.

We still need a couple more people.

[HaloNoble6]

I'm down.

How exactly does a channel get 'taken?'

[iouswuoibev]

Could you not put a BOT of your own in there in the meantime?

[iouswuoibev]

How exactly does a channel get 'taken?'

In IRC, a channel is "claimed" by someone by them being the first user to join it. That user is given operator status, and thus the ability to grant and take away operator status on other users. The presence of a BOT (a computer program that looks like a user) with operator status is required to provide a means of maintaining order and remembering a users' authority in his absence, as well as being there 99% of the time to prevent a user joining while the channel is empty and thus taking over the channel.

The IRC Network itself sometimes has a "channel service" which basically provides a BOT for those channels that want permenant status. Also, being a part of the server itself, the "chanserv" BOT will not dissapear if the network goes down, meaning that the channel can never be taken over via the BOT being temporarily absent due to network problems.

[TomL]

Could you not put a BOT of your own in there in the meantime?

There is a 'bot present, but that does not guarantee control of the channel during massive netsplits. #aynrand used a 'bot also, and their current status proves that it only helps, but does not guarantee.

The 'bot can get disconnected in a net split, just like anyone else.

[popeazr|el]

Please don't flatter yourself, we have no interest in your Undernet channel, #objectivist. We gained control of #aynrand through mere coincidental realization of the lack of X and no operators in #aynrand. If you are unfamiliar with the workings of Undernet, please refer to the Undernet AUP found at http://cservice.undernet.org/live/regproc/aup.php . Therefore, referring to the new owners of #aynrand as "thieves" is incorrect. Any fan of Ayn Rand is welcome in #aynrand and the channel will now be dedicated to the free exchange of ideas. Please note that this is contrary to what Bearster maintained through exercising his neurotic need for control.

In summary, we are not hostile and welcome anybody who wishes to hang out in #aynrand.

popeazr|el

Edited to remove unncessary quoting of entire original message.

[Bearster]

Ordinarily, I don't respond to thieves in my own living room. But this being a public forum, I assume there are people who don't understand the full context.

We gained control of #aynrand through mere coincidental realization

...

Therefore, referring to the new owners of #aynrand as "thieves" is incorrect.

...

Any fan of Ayn Rand is welcome in #aynrand

It's true that I let X lapse due to travel. The analogy would be forgetting to lock my front door. Now that I've returned, I find squatters in my house. But it's ok, it is "mere coincidence" and they are not "hostile". They are "fans of property rights."

Some simple /whois commands showed the following

azr|el [email protected] * : 0x29A

azr|el :@#killjoy @#socialism @#Earthnet +#weed #ufo @#jerkstore @#newswire

 @#aynrand @#spliff @#SIGArms


popeazr|el [email protected] * : alex

popeazr|el :@#killjoy @#socialism @#Earthnet @#\m/etal #ufo @#jerkstore

 @#SouthPark+ @#newswire @#aynrand @#spliff[/code]


a username of "anarkhia", a channel operator on #socialism, member of a channel named for a mind-altering drug...


I guess "fan of Ayn Rand" is far indeed from "Objectivist."  It only begs the question of how one can be a fan of Ayn Rand and yet live in contradiction with all of her principles.

Edited April 21, 2005 by Bearster

[TomL]

We gained control of #aynrand through mere coincidental realization of the lack of X and no operators in #aynrand.

... and a desire to take it, stemming from a desire to deny Bearster what is rightfully his.

Therefore, referring to the new owners of #aynrand as "thieves" is incorrect.

The Undernet AUP says nothing about property rights with respect to channels, only to the conditions for channel service. What is property? What makes it belong to one man and not another?

Any fan of Ayn Rand is welcome in #aynrand

Bearster is a fan of Ayn Rand. Is he welcome? What about his friends?

and the channel will now be dedicated to the free exchange of ideas.

How about the idea that you and your friends are thieves? Am I free to come in and discuss your thievery with anyone that joins the channel?

Please note that this is contrary to what Bearster maintained through exercising his neurotic need for control.

You can always go and make your own channel. There's nothing to be gained by seizing what is not yours. There is now no possibility of "freedom" in #aynrand, since it is ruled by those will take whatever they feel they deserve at the first opportunity.

In summary, we are not hostile and welcome anybody who wishes to hang out in #aynrand.

Even if your hostility is limited only to Bearster, you are still hostile. Would anyone else as sure of himself and what he wants be met with the same hostility?

[popeazr|el]

Ordinarily, I don't respond to thieves in my own living room.  But this being a public forum, I assume there are people who don't understand the full context.

It's true that I let X lapse due to travel.  The analogy would be forgetting to lock my front door.  Now that I've returned, I find squatters in my house.  But it's ok, it is "mere coincidence" and they are not "hostile".  They are "fans of property rights."

The analogy would actually be closer to moving all of your possessions out (since the channel was completely empty when we found it, logs to prove it too) and leaving the door unlocked with a sign that says "owner has abandoned house." Extending your analogy you could make all sorts of interesting points, but the reality is that on IRC, ownership belongs to the first member of an empty channel. Whatever events transpired to make that possible are not my fault. If you cannot accept these facts, that's quite sad.

To answer TomL, yes bearster is welcome in #aynrand. Maybe in the future he'll even be asked to be an operator, but it's much too early to make such decisions. The only thing that isn't welcome in #aynrand are intrusion attempts to the bots or channel flooding (text, nick, CTCP, or otherwise). So yes, that means you're welcome to come and talk about "thievery" if you wish, but that would be pointless and quite the display of mental masturbation. Why make my own channel when the channel I wanted was empty when I joined? If you're not competent enough on the IRC network to ensure this does not happen, somebody else will.

a username of "anarkhia", a channel operator on #socialism, member of a channel named for a mind-altering drug...

I guess "fan of Ayn Rand" is far indeed from "Objectivist."  It only begs the question of how one can be a fan of Ayn Rand and yet live in contradiction with all of her principles.

I also own #communism and #anarkhia. The story of those channels is long and not really relevant. But, if you're interested we can talk about it sometime. My channel ownership is quite eclectic and I'm glad you took the time to notice. I also own #blackmarketbabysales, #generaladvice, #insults, and op in #jerkstore, #paranormal-exchange, and #earthnet. My point is to illustrate that my membership in other channels is quite a useless method of deriving any sort of information about me or my personal philosophy. However, please don't get the impression that I will respond any further to inane comments concerning assumptions made about me.

Thanks to PetterS on Undernet for letting me know somebody responded to my post.

[TomL]

The analogy would actually be closer to moving all of your possessions out (since the channel was completely empty when we found it, logs to prove it too) and leaving the door unlocked with a sign that says "owner has abandoned house."

There was no such sign. Where was it posted anywhere explicitly that the channel was abandoned? There is a difference between a house with the door wide open, and a house with a sign on it that says "abandoned". The channel was in the former state, not the latter.

If you feel no guilt and have feel completely righteous in your actions, then why do you need logs to prove anything?

So yes, that means you're welcome to come and talk about "thievery" if you wish, but that would be pointless and quite the display of mental masturbation.

That says all it needs to say about your alleged status as an Objectivist. Any real one can see right through this. Objectivists consider ideas important, and your statement says explicitly that ideas are "pointless" and "mental masturbation". You would allow anyone free reign to say anything they want; including yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

Why make my own channel when the channel I wanted was empty when I

joined?

Why did you want it? You've already given the answer because you mentioned what you thought of Bearster's management before you were even asked.

My point is to illustrate that my membership in other channels is quite a useless method of deriving any sort of information about me or my personal philosophy.

It is not an assumption that you own these channels, as you've admitted to it. What that says about your character, regardless of the reasons for your ownership of them, is clear. You consider the channels important for some reason, either because you agree with them or think they hold some merit that you wish to suppress. Either way, you sanction the ideas that the channels represent.

[popeazr|el]

Perhaps you can tell me where I admitted to being an Objectivist. I never have said anything resembling such a remark. I merely find myself a fan of Ayn Rand after having read one of her works.

that says all it needs to say about your alleged status as an Objectivist. Any real one can see right through this. Objectivists consider ideas important, and your statement says explicitly that ideas are "pointless" and "mental masturbation". You would allow anyone free reign to say anything they want; including yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

My statement said explicity that talking about my "thievery" after I clearly stated the actual events that transpired would be mental masturbation. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Where was it posted anywhere explicitly that the channel was abandoned? There is a difference between a house with the door wide open, and a house with a sign on it that says "abandoned". The channel was in the former state, not the latter.

If you are unfamiliar with the rules of the location you are immersing yourself in, it would be best if you learned them or left. An empty channel on Undernet is explicity open to claim. Please adjust your analogies accordingly.

If you feel no guilt and have feel completely righteous in your actions, then why do you need logs to prove anything?

I have the need for logs because of your false claims of thievery. My logs show the channel being completely empty once I joined, thereby nullifying any claim of force or thievery being used to gain control.

Either way you sanction the ideas the channels represent.

I hardly sanction collectivism, yet I control #socialism, #communism, and #anarkhia. I have no need to extend this to every other channel I own with an explanation as to why, but channel ownership hardly sanctions the ideas the channel represents. Perhaps your argument would have merit if I conducted activity in those channels inline with the channel names, until then it would be your assumptions leading you to these conclusions.

Bearster's actions led to my being banned from #aynrand originally after only joining to listen to what others had to say. Therefore I decided to start my own channel not having heard of #objectivist. (Bearster was not very helpful in directing me to a location where I might learn, but instead felt it necessary to attempt to belittle). Thus, when I joined #aynrand out of curiosity one day much later, I found it empty and the perfect site for my new channel, especially since I soon found that I was not alone in having been a beginner to Objectivism and having experienced Bearster in #aynrand.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

popeazr|el (my nick does not imply my contesting of the current papal legitimacy)

[DavidV]

I've banned “popeazr|el.” I think the existing posts are sufficient to demonstrate his character.

By the way, #AynRand was an active channel prior to the hijacking. The participants have moved to #AisA, and the live chat links on this site have been updated to include it. (It seems that the former participants of #Ayn Rand, including me, were banned shortly after the theft.)

[smathy]

As a demonstration of the the squatter's attitude to freedom of thought. I joined the channel a couple of days after the takeover and said "At the risk of being kick/banned, I'd like to ask a question about the recent events here."

I can't remember definitely who it was, the name "Popeazr|el" sounds familiar. But on of the ops said something to the effect of "I'll save you the trouble." and kicked me out before I asked. I can't say whether I was banned or not, because that action answered the only question I had of the squatters

Edited April 22, 2005 by smathy

[norwegian_Objectivist]

Thanks to PetterS on Undernet for letting me know somebody responded to my post.

I had a talk with popeazr|el, to try and figure out his purpose with this take over. No doubt he will use the channel to attack Ayn Rand and Objectivism.

Now this thread will stand here, so that everyone can see what a person he is.

#AisA is as mentioned operative, so everything that has changed is the name. Now we better spread the word that #aynrand is taken, to keep him from using the channel as a weapon for his agenda.

[IRCMech]

IRC is an enviroment in itself and the rules of THAT enviroment must be followed, just as Ayn Rand states: "Reality, the external world, exists independent of man's consciousness, independent of any observer's knowledge, beliefs, feelings, desires or fears. This means that A is A, that facts are facts, that things are what they are—and that the task of man's consciousness is to perceive reality, not to create or invent it." Thus Objectivism rejects any belief in the supernatural—and any claim that individuals or groups create their own reality.

Bearsters notion of "leaving his front door unlocked" could not be more incorrect. It would be the equivalent of living in a parking lot with both reserved and unreserved spaces, and getting upset because someone took your favorite spot, even though it is not reserved. His liberal notion that moral sanction can be employed to impress a desire of ownership and change the reality of the IRC enviroment is way off. For one thing, the second you leave an unregistered channel on IRC, it ceases to exist. Your home does not.

Again, when an unregistered channel is emptied, it ceases to exist. That is the enviroment. If a channel owner neglects to fulfill his agreement with channel services (As Bearster did), services may be withdrawn, resulting in an unregistered channel. These are facts.

IRC is a virtual parking lot. A registered channel is a reserved space. An unregistered channel, while it may be a favorite parking spot, is NOT reserved. This too is a fact.

A is A

GreedyCapitalist himself admitted to Rubicon that Bearster "abandoned" the channel, but "now wants it back".

But now it's all changing because everyone wants to condemn the actions of another. Calling people "Thieves, Hi-Jackers and Squatters" to try and qualify an action as theft when the facts are wholly contradictory.

An unregistered channel ceases to exist when the last person leaves. When the first person joins a channel, that person creates it. It is NOT a channel that has of value, but the presence of individuals within and the security that they provide. Bearster has failed to see the reality of the situation and GreedyCapitalist has too

IRCMech

[DavidV]

IRCmech,

I agree with your general point, but you have to consider the context of the situation. #AynRand was being actively used, and was taken over because of a netsplit – a momenary network disconnection. The goal of the person who took it over is not to reclaim abandoned property, but solely to deny it from someone who had used it for nearly 10 years because of a technical glitch. Legally, what he did is not theft, but morally, it's pure malicious vandalism.

[DavidV]

GreedyCapitalist himself admitted to Rubicon that Bearster "abandoned" the channel, but "now wants it back".

No I didn't, and I would warn others to question anything else “popeazr|el”/“Rubicon” has said given the propensity to lie he has already demonstrated.

[IRCMech]

Context - How can you miss the point that in the enviroment of IRC, your claims of ownership do not exist? Context has not one thing to do with it. What you are trying to do is no different than someone trying to claim exclusive rights to a favorite computer at a Cyber-Cafe. If this is the kind of exclusive rights you want, then you register and maintain the registration of that channel or you install your own IRCD and call it irc.objectivist.org. You do NOT cry foul when you lose your favorite parking spot of 10 years because you were negligent in your duties to maintain registration. It does not matter ONE BIT that a favorite parking spot is being used regularly if you do not maintain the registration of it. If there were a fire in a parking garage and all the cars were removed and you lost your favorite parking spot because of it, you would not being making this argument to the person that took your favorite spot. The channel is NOT property. It is reserved if you follow the rules of channel registration, which it was NOT registered.

Moral Intent - All you have managed to say is that Bearster lost his favorite virtual parking spot because it was desirable, but let me add that this would not have happened had Bearster not been negligent. He failed to obey the rules put in place specifically to prevent this from happening. His failure to obey those rules and continued lack of action to correct that failure and re-register the channel literally sanctioned the actions of anyone typing /join #aynrand becoming the new channel manager. The intention for doing so is entirely secondary. Bearster enabled this entire scenerio. To call anyone malicious only magnifies Bearster's role in enabling the situation. END OF DISCUSSION

A person using the nick/ISP "GreedyCapitl is [email protected]" joined #aynrand (and was shown to be in #objectivist) at precisely 20:04:23 Central Time, chatted for a time with Rubicon before saying the following at the specified time index:

[20:26:07] <GreedyCapitl> keith abandoned the channel

[20:26:12] <GreedyCapitl> and aparently it's been taken over

[20:26:18] <GreedyCapitl> he's trying to get it back

[20:26:27] <Rubicon> But you just said he abandoned it

[20:26:37] <GreedyCapitl> he was busy for a while

[20:27:00] <Rubicon> I do believe those are the rules of IRC

[20:27:46] <GreedyCapitl> indeed

If this was not you, I extend my apology.

IRCMech

PS - I am normally very busy and this issue is taking much of my time, so please forgive me if my response is over-stated.

[DavidV]

I have nothing else to add on this topic. Let me just mention that I will immediately ban anyone who was involved in the hijacking of #AynRand, since their disregard for property is a threat to my forum as well.

FYI:

Apr 18 20:32:07 * Topic for #aynrand is: Bearster likes to be reasonably probed

Apr 18 20:32:07 * Topic for #aynrand set by azr|el at Mon Apr 18 13:33:40 2005

Apr 18 21:26:25 <GreedyCapitl> so, who are you guys?

Apr 18 21:26:42 <azr|el> the new ops, nice to meet you

Apr 18 21:26:44 <azr|el> and you are?

Apr 18 21:26:50 <GreedyCapitl> I'm David

Apr 18 21:27:09 <GreedyCapitl> why so many ops?

Apr 18 21:27:31 <azr|el> why so many questions?

Apr 18 21:27:52 <GreedyCapitl> you're new here, not me

Apr 18 21:28:07 <azr|el> an irrelevant observation

Apr 18 21:28:16 <azr|el> we and bearster go way back

Apr 18 21:28:21 <GreedyCapitl> do tell

Apr 18 21:28:33 <azr|el> I'm hardly motivated to do so, actually

Apr 18 21:28:52 <azr|el> you can ask he

Apr 18 21:28:57 <azr|el> if you see him

Apr 18 21:29:01 <GreedyCapitl> oh, you brought it up

Apr 18 21:29:08 <GreedyCapitl> so, what are your plans for the channel?

Apr 18 21:29:24 <azr|el> is that a trick question?

Apr 18 21:29:30 <GreedyCapitl> no

Apr 18 21:29:34 <azr|el> are you a fan of ayn rand?

Apr 18 21:29:39 <GreedyCapitl> yes

Apr 18 21:29:47 <azr|el> excellent, you're welcome to stay then

Apr 18 21:30:06 <GreedyCapitl> um, thanks, but that doesn't answer my question

Apr 18 21:31:29 <azr|el> this is an ayn rand discussion channel

Apr 18 21:31:34 <azr|el> I'm not sure how obvious that needs to get

Apr 18 21:31:40 * You are now known as HeroicLife

Apr 18 21:31:43 <HeroicLife> I see

Apr 18 21:35:20 * azr|el has changed the topic to: Welcome to #aynrand, please enjoy your stay...and remember, only YOU can make sure you're welcome here

Apr 18 21:38:13 <HeroicLife> so what's #jerkstore

Apr 18 21:38:20 <HeroicLife> I mean, what's up with all the ops there

Apr 18 21:38:39 <azr|el> they're all jerks

Apr 18 21:38:58 <HeroicLife> are you a jerk too, then?

Apr 18 21:39:13 [DNS]Looking up syntek.users.undernet.org (azr|el)...

Apr 18 21:39:13 [DNS] Lookup failed. No such host is known.

Apr 18 21:39:22 <azr|el> you are quite observant

Apr 18 21:39:48 <azr|el> some aren't jerks but only jerk-wannabes

Apr 18 21:41:47 <azr|el> you should really ask questions about other channels in said channels

Apr 18 21:42:44 <HeroicLife> it didn't seem very active

Apr 18 21:42:56 <HeroicLife> but why is everyone an op there?

Apr 18 21:43:06 <azr|el> you'd have to ask the channel owner

Apr 18 21:43:15 <HeroicLife> hard to tell, with everyone being op and all

Apr 18 21:43:19 <azr|el> I guess he decided that the regulars deserve ops

Apr 18 21:43:49 <HeroicLife> you seem to have the same policy, no?

Apr 18 21:43:55 <azr|el> no

Apr 18 21:44:10 <HeroicLife> so why are there 6 ops here?

Apr 18 21:45:10 <azr|el> because they're people I trust to help me maintain control of #here

Apr 18 21:45:28 <HeroicLife> I see

Apr 18 21:45:29 <azr|el> all from different parts of the world, therefore a good chance that we won't all lose connection at the same time

Apr 18 21:45:33 <azr|el> a valid concern lacking X

Apr 18 21:45:40 <azr|el> as your former channel manager has found out

Apr 18 21:45:46 <HeroicLife> why not sign up for X?

Apr 18 21:46:03 <azr|el> because there's only 24 hours in the day

Apr 18 21:46:14 <azr|el> and we're enjoying that new channel smell

Apr 18 21:46:20 <HeroicLife> I see

Apr 18 21:46:24 <azr|el> well get around to it, don't worry

next day:

Apr 19 19:56:02 * Now talking on #aynrand

Apr 19 19:56:02 * Topic for #aynrand is: Welcome to #aynrand, please enjoy your stay... (Moral imperitive SERVED)

Apr 19 19:56:02 * Topic for #aynrand set by RV at Tue Apr 19 19:10:02 2005

Apr 19 19:57:09 * RV sets ban on *!*@12.109.26.*

Apr 19 19:57:10 * You have been kicked from #aynrand by RV (Just another sticky ban)

[IRCMech]

The bans in #aynrand were incidental. The result of a misunderstanding/miscommunication and to the best of my knowledge have long since been removed.

Thank you for your time and free exchange of thoughts.

IRCMech

[TomL]

To continue your parking analogy: during the massive netsplit which you so conveniently forgot to mention, not only was there no one in the "parking space", and there was no "reserved" sign (X), but the parking lot ceased to exist itself. Now how is anyone supposed to stay in their parking space when there's no parking lot? The fact of the matter is, despite Bearster's absence, there were other ops present except during the massive netsplit which you took advantage of to seize the channel.

That is not just "happening" across it, but a coup, with deliberate and malicious intent.

Of course, azr|el has already admitted that he new Bearster ran the channel before he joined it, and we also know he was banned from it. Thus it is now impossible for him or anyone else to say that he just "happened" to find it available, and had no idea that anyone would be there. He had prior knowledge of its existence, and his whole purpose and intent for taking the channel was not because he wanted it or that he is a fan of Ayn Rand, but that he is a hater of Bearster.

Basically, the only reason he took Bearster's "parking space" was because he doesn't like Bearster. It has nothing to do with his allegedly being a fan of Ayn Rand, which, based upon the IRC logs we've seen and his actions, is most likely completely false. The whole thing is a big ruse just to deny someone else something that they've had for many years, out of spite and malice.

While it is true that the channel control itself has changed hands according to the terms and conditions of the network owners, there is more to a channel that the electronic construct "#channel" present in the IRC servers.

A channel consists also of the people in it, the environment they create for themselves, the nature of the ideas they share, and the comraderie of the participants. It is this part of the definition of "IRC channel" which you attempt to deny by saying "Get over it". And it is this part of the IRC channel which no one besides its creator, not even the owners of the network, can claim ownership of.

All of these things over time become linked to the electronic channel construct, especially when some participants do not return for weeks or months at a time. And it is this very part of the channel, the non-coporeal essence of an IRC channel, the part which you don't want anyone to notice the existence of -- which you wish to destroy by seizing control of it.

[Bearster]

I just want to say "thanks, Tom". You went to surprising length to explain the nature of the matter. I could not have said it better myself.