Is it immoral for a man to be effeminate?

[daniel]

Well, I'm a manly man and I wear pink shirts (some of the time), so you can totally forget about the pink shirt thing. I advise against pink pants, though.

Perhaps wearing pink has a much different implication in Britain or more likely in my circles -right wingers. Popular culture in the UK views it as camp.

The one thing you can be sure of is that Rand never advocated denying nature, so if it's in your nature to walk like a girl (and I mean that in the nicest way), then it would be just plain wrong for you to walk like me. If you walk the way you do because of a bunion and a torn ligament, then there's no sense in which your walk could be wrong. If you chose to walk the way you do, then the obvious question is, why? If it's "so that I can fit in with the crowd better, even though I hate it", then it's wrong. When you ask a moral question about whether it's right or wrong, the rightness is not intrinsic to the action. So if your behavior is a recognition of optional values, then it's right; if your behavior is a denial of your nature, it's wrong.

Thanks, its the former.

[Inspector]

What optional value gives rise to a man walking like a woman?

[daniel]

What optional value gives rise to a man walking like a woman?

Perhaps it could be argued that such a mannerism sets someone apart and if one values attention from others it is a value as such attention brings happiness. I'm still trying to process these thoughts though. What do you think?

[Inspector]

Perhaps it could be argued that such a mannerism sets someone apart and if one values attention from others it is a value as such attention brings happiness. I'm still trying to process these thoughts though. What do you think?

That's what I figure as well, although I don't consider attention from others as such to be a valid source of happiness. I'm not sure what your opinion of that idea is, though, as sadly internet text does not communicate your tone.

There's a fine line between doing something as a joke and permanently turning yourself into a walking joke. (literally in this case) You should have more self-respect and dignity than to walk around like that all the time.

Ignoring for a second that too much concern for the opinions of others is the vice of second-handedness, what makes attention as such something that one would want from other people? Wouldn't one care what kind of attention one is getting? Ridicule, disgust, and hatred are forms of attention. So are respect and love. Even if it were true that attention from others was a value (which it isn't!), this would only be true of good attention!

[daniel]

That's what I figure as well, although I don't consider attention from others as such to be a valid source of happiness. I'm not sure what your opinion of that idea is, though, as sadly internet text does not communicate your tone.

There's a fine line between doing something as a joke and permanently turning yourself into a walking joke. (literally in this case) You should have more self-respect and dignity than to walk around like that all the time.

Ignoring for a second that too much concern for the opinions of others is the vice of second-handedness, what makes attention as such something that one would want from other people? Wouldn't one care what kind of attention one is getting? Ridicule, disgust, and hatred are forms of attention. So are respect and love. Even if it were true that attention from others was a value (which it isn't!), this would only be true of good attention!

Attention in the respect that someone is seen as out of the norm. After all who wants to be normal? Also some people who claim to be 'manly' but would never behave in camp manner are quite amusing: they want to be seen as brave yet they are afraid people will think badly of them if they behave in a certain way. That just seems cowardly. Thus behaving in a way which stands out is perhaps not good because someone gets attention but they behave bravely - they do what others won't. Thus in a way behaving femine is brave and therefore it brings happiness. I would hope all have enough self respect as to do what makes them happy, as opposed to deny their urge to behave in the way they want just because some people may snigger.

[DavidOdden]

What optional value gives rise to a man walking like a woman?

I don't know, but there is a lot of variation in how people can walk, and surprisingly little in how they do walk within a culture. Violating social conventions which don't arise from the basic need to survive can be a way of distancing yourself from the herd. 50 years ago, men wore plain white shirts because that's what men are supposed to do ("Because..?" -- blank out). Decidint to act some particular way just because it's the social convention is not a very good reason at all, and explicitly rejecting such a reason is at least a step up the ladder.

[Groovenstein]

Decidint to act some particular way just because it's the social convention is not a very good reason at all, and explicitly rejecting such a reason is at least a step up the ladder.

I disagree with this statement. For example, if I were appearing before a court, I'd wear a suit and tie. I'd be much more comfortable in a tee shirt and shorts, but suit and tie is the convention. Do you think that is not a good reason? Is there something I'm leaving out?

[DavidOdden]

I disagree with this statement.  For example, if I were appearing before a court, I'd wear a suit and tie.  I'd be much more comfortable in a tee shirt and shorts, but suit and tie is the convention.  Do you think that is not a good reason?  Is there something I'm leaving out?

The question is whether you do do the suit thing because you think you should follow convention, or because you know that judges might actually smack you for appearing in court inappropriately dressed (and at any rate you would probably prejudice the jury against your client if you dressed casual). I'm not claiming that a person should never do the actions dictated by social convention, just that you need to have a good reason.

[Groovenstein]

The question is whether . . .

Please tell me if this is a fair summary of your position: social convention by itself is not a rational value, but in some contexts it can be rational as a step to achieving a different value (such as dressing up for a job interview).

If I have accurately stated your position, then I agree with it. As an example, it would not make sense to wear something you didn't like around your own home when you are alone because it's "convention." In that context, there is no rational value to be gained by following convention.

[DavidOdden]

Please tell me if this is a fair summary of your position: social convention by itself is not a rational value, but in some contexts it can be rational as a step to achieving a different value (such as dressing up for a job interview).

Yes, completely accurate (so, the rational value would be "getting the job" and dressing up is a recognition of the fact of dressing for success requirements -- which isn't a requirement for interviews in my line of work, and would be in yours.

[Michero]

An Objectivist i know said Ayn Rand believed 'men should behave like men and women should behave like women'. (He than mentioned that she thought women should 'hero worship' men). How do you interpret this and is it correct? Is it immoral/wrong for a man to behave 'camp'?

Personally there are certain traits that I consider to be masculine vs. feminine. For instance, aggressiveness. When I say that one man seems "manly" I usually am referring to the fact that he aggressively pursues what he wants. While women can also be aggressive I do tend to look on women who are overtly aggressive as being slightly masculine. This of course could just be a product of my society. Women to me it seems are more verbal. Therefore men who "gossip" or use indirect language --ie sweet talk or political speech tend to come off as feminine to me. In other words I interpret directness of directness of action-aggressiveness and directness of speech-bluntness as being masculine traits.

On a related note, I have a gay friend who has often told me that he finds men who behave flamboyantly or "campy" to be very unattractive. Not referring to the clothes they wear but more the way they speak, what the speak about how they act. He seems to be more attracted to men who fit the traditional mold of masculinity.

[Felix]

On the pink T-shirt issue. I refuse to wear one. Got one for birthday. Didn't wear it.

About a natural way of moving your body, read Feldenkrais. He's good. You feel better when you apply his stuff.

But the question was:

What is masculine and what is feminine?

Hmmm....

I'd say that aggressive confident goal-orientedness makes a good man.

If this trait is not there, well ... that's not a real man, I'd say.

I wonder what JMeganSnow has to say about this.

What makes a good woman.

The first thing that pops into my mind is beauty, but that's not enough. There are beautiful women I wouldn't want to talk to or date because they're stupid.

I also believe that a woman need some sort of confident goal orientedness. At least I like women who have their own mind.

I guess this classic femininity is nothing but suppression of women's minds.

And it makes them boring.

[daniel]

On the pink T-shirt issue. I refuse to wear one. Got one for birthday. Didn't wear it.

About a natural way of moving your body, read Feldenkrais. He's good. You feel better when you apply his stuff.

But the question was:

What is masculine and what is feminine?

Hmmm....

I'd say that aggressive confident goal-orientedness makes a good man.

If this trait is not there, well ... that's not a real man, I'd say.

I wonder what JMeganSnow has to say about this.

What makes a good woman.

The first thing that pops into my mind is beauty, but that's not enough. There are beautiful women I wouldn't want to talk to or date because they're stupid.

I also believe that a woman need some sort of confident goal orientedness. At least I like women who have their own mind.

I guess this classic femininity is nothing but suppression of women's minds.

And it makes them boring.

I agree that confident goal-orientedness makes a good man. Also i think if one is like this while acting in a way which society views as femine is fine, it dosen't take away the goal-orientedness. If a man is not goal orientated i wouldn't say he's not a real man, just he lacks ambition. On the issue of women, i think a good woman is confident and goal orientated, for example Margaret Thatcher was a good woman in my opinion. I don't think they have to be beautiful, rather they have to be an achiever.

[Capitalism Forever]

Is there something inherently un-masculine about pink shirts?

As long as you don't wear pink panties to go along with them...

Pink does not necessarily detract from the masculinity of its wearer, but it certainly never adds to it either. It does, on the other hand, add to the femininity of women.

To understand why pink is neutral at least and feminine on women, try to imagine an army going to battle in pink uniforms.

[Inspector]

Decidint to act some particular way just because it's the social convention is not a very good reason at all, and explicitly rejecting such a reason is at least a step up the ladder.

I agree with the first part but disagree with the second. Fashionable non-conformism is much worse.

Edited September 5, 2005 by Inspector

[Inspector]

Also some people who claim to be 'manly' but would never behave in camp manner are quite amusing: they want to be seen as brave yet they are afraid people will think badly of them if they behave in a certain way. That just seems cowardly.

While this is true, it does not make behaving in a feminine way a good thing.

Thus behaving in a way which stands out is perhaps not good because someone gets attention but they behave bravely - they do what others won't. Thus in a way behaving femine is brave and therefore it brings happiness. I would hope all have enough self respect as to do what makes them happy, as opposed to deny their urge to behave in the way they want just because some people may snigger.

Don't confuse the idea of doing something that is nonfashionable because it is right with the idea of doing something nonfashionable simply to nonconform. If you could prove that walking like women do is objectively more masculine than walking in the way that men traditionally do, then you might have a point. But women walk the way they do because it is objectively feminine: it displays the hips, a female secondary sex characteristic.

You shouldn't refrain from "camp" just because people say so: you should refrain because it is degrading to your masculinity.

[Praxus]

Thus behaving in a way which stands out is perhaps not good because someone gets attention but they behave bravely - they do what others won't. Thus in a way behaving femine is brave and therefore it brings happiness.

Bravery is not "doing what others won't do". Bravery is facing fear when it is right to face that fear. When it isn't right to face it but you do it anyways, it is rashness. So the question is: is it right for someone to act "camp"? This question has to be answered prior to the point when you ask if it's brave or not.

[Hal]

Why is non-conformism for the sake of non-conformism any worse than conformism in general? Theres no difference between someone who dyes his hair pink to stand out, and someone who wears a suit to fit in.

[Inspector]

Why is non-conformism for the sake of non-conformism any worse than conformism in general? Theres no difference between someone who dyes his hair pink to stand out, and someone who wears a suit to fit in.

Fasionable non-conformism is worse because it is pretending to be "brave" and such. At least conformity is honest.

Oh, and here's a relevant quote:

"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of a conformist: the fashionable non-conformist."

-Ayn Rand

[daniel]

While this is true, it does not make behaving in a feminine way a good thing.

Don't confuse the idea of doing something that is nonfashionable because it is right with the idea of doing something nonfashionable simply to nonconform. If you could prove that walking like women do is objectively more masculine than walking in the way that men traditionally do, then you might have a point. But women walk the way they do because it is objectively feminine: it displays the hips, a female secondary sex characteristic.

You shouldn't refrain from "camp" just because people say so: you should refrain because it is degrading to your masculinity.

But what is masculinity? I know what society says its is, but that dosen't make it right. Ayn Rand once said "What is proper for a man is proper for a woman....There is no particular work which is specifically feminine." Thus is there anything which is specifically masculine? Of course I'm male but if i have pout lips or long eyelashes, which are rather femine in the eyes of society, how should i behave? Isn't it impossible to truly say if one way of behaving is femine and another is masculine?

Also wouldn't it be more degrading to behave in a way that I don't like?

[Hal]

Fasionable non-conformism is worse because it is pretending to be "brave" and such. At least conformity is honest.

Why is non-conformism 'pretending to be brave'? Maybe they just want to distance themselves from society/mainstream culture for whatever reason, and wish their outward experience to express this?

Oh, and here's a relevant quote:

A quote isnt an argument.

"The only thing worse than non-conformists is people who invent silly rationalisations for arbitrary fashions (suits are objectively shown to highlight the male body!)" - Hal

[Inspector]

Why is non-conformism 'pretending to be brave'? Maybe they just want to distance themselves from society/mainstream culture for whatever reason, and wish their outward experience to express this?

I don't know what it is that you're missing as it is pretty obvious to me. Perhaps you don't have a clear picture of what a fasionable non-conformist is? Someone who rebels by conforming... someone who conforms to a pre-set "rebellion." How about the college students in Cashing In: the Student Revolt? How about the "goths" who all non-conform by dressing the same?

A quote isnt an argument.

"The only thing worse than non-conformists is people who invent silly rationalisations for arbitrary fashions (suits are objectively shown to highlight the male body!)" - Hal

Yikes, calm down! I didn't say it was an argument, I said it was relevant!

And suits do objectively highlight certain male features.

How about another relevant quote:

"Why did the short-hair cross the road?

Because somebody told him to.

Why did the long-hair cross the road?

Because somebody told him not to."

-Firesign Theatre

Blindly doing what you're told vs blindly doing the opposite. I say the latter is worse because those who are doing the opposite think that they're being "individuals." Nothing could be further from the truth: blindly doing the opposite is every bit as second-handed.

I hope that makes it clearer. And in the future, calm down.

[Hal]

I don't know what it is that you're missing as it is pretty obvious to me. Perhaps you don't have a clear picture of what a fasionable non-conformist is? Someone who rebels by conforming... someone who conforms to a pre-set "rebellion." How about the college students in Cashing In: the Student Revolt? How about the "goths" who all non-conform by dressing the same?

I dont think these people are necessarily 'rebelling by conforming'. Goths tend to dress the way they do to identify themselves with a particular subculture - its not really any different from businessmen wearing suits. It seems like youve got a mental picture that these people wake up one morning and think "what can I do to stand out from the world today?!", and I dont think it applies in the vast majority of cases.

Yikes, calm down! I didn't say it was an argument, I said it was relevant!

I didnt intend what I posted to come across as either agressive or insulting, and apologies if it did so.

And suits do objectively highlight certain male features.

No more than togas or the animal furs worn by tribal people.

Blindly doing what you're told vs blindly doing the opposite. I say the latter is worse

If you refuse to do what youre told, that still leaves a huge range of available options for you to choose from. A person who decides not to conform to social conventions doesnt have to become a goth - theres hundreds of other things they could choose instead. So its just wrong to say they are blindly doing the opposite - there is no 'opposite' here. Edited September 6, 2005 by Hal

[DavidOdden]

Fashionable non-conformism is much worse.

"Fashionable non-conformism" -- an interesting expression. Isn't fashionable non-conformism another variety of conformism, which you adhere to a minority fashion rather than a majority fashion? I was speaking of a significant break from all trend, selected purely for the sake of breaking from trends.

[JMeganSnow]

I wonder what JMeganSnow has to say about this.

Well, I pretty much stated my view earlier: masculinity/femininity is about the way you view the opposite sex, not your view of life in general.

The only articles of clothing I'd consider to be specifically masculine/feminine would be ones that are physically gender-specific, i.e. there's no point in wearing a bra if you are a man (or a really low-cut shirt, for that matter). (Sometimes there's no point in wearing a bra if you're a woman, either, but I digress.)

As for suits being designed to play up masculine features: you are aware that women wear suits TOO and look GREAT, right? And that there are distinctly round-shouldered, potbellied men that don't exactly have the same "features" to play up as other men? Suits look awful unless they are TAILORED in which case they sure better play up your good features! Otherwise you wasted a lot of money. The only real difference between women's suits and mens suits is that women don't usually wear a tie and we get to choose between pants and a skirt. In Scotland the men can also wear a skirt. Er . . . kilt.