Getting Over It

[tnunamak]

If you want to skip all of the background info, I have indicated where my questions/concerns begin with asterisks. Let me warn you now that this is going to be tough for me to put into words correctly, so I may seem to be unclear or jump around a bit.

Last year one of my very good friends became friends with a girl that he studied with often. I didn't really know her well at the time, but one night he told me that he thought she liked him, but he said that he didn't want a relationship with her. In fact, he told me (paraphrasing), "You should date her so I don't have to worry about it." At that point I didn't know her too well, and I only really saw her when my friend invited the two of us to do something, like watch a movie, etc. I found her to be attractive, and when we did see each other there was definitely flirting, and I know that she liked me, but at the time I felt that I was too busy to get involved with anyone and nothing really happened. This didn't stop me from growing interested in her when I did see her, however.

In the meantime she also grew interested in my friend, who she was spending quite a bit more time with. When I spoke with him about it, he continued to confirm his disinterest in her, so I took this as an ok to become interested in her. Eventually, however, as the year went on, he started to like her more and although I didn't really know much about it, they both had feelings for each other and he said yes to a relationship at the end of the year. I didn't find this out until I returned from home after the summer, but last year they had been going out to dinner a lot, etc. I think she initiated most of it but he didn't try to stop her, and eventually he went along with it. I remember that she just suddenly seemed to be very cold towards me, and I was very confused as to why, when just the day before we were enjoying ourselves together. Now I am sure it was because my friend finally decided to try something with her. At the time, I took that as a sign of disinterest and I didn't see or speak to her much at the end of the year or over the summer.

For the summer, I was on the other side of the country, and they both lived in the same town and were in a relationship. I was a little disheartened to know that my friend had told me that he wasn't interested in her, but then went back on that after I had allowed myself to become interested, but I never really talked to him about how I felt about her so I can't say I blame him.

This year my friend transferred to a school in Georgia (from Texas). By now the girl was kind of in our circle of friends, so I would see her fairly often and we would go out in a group together once in a while. We got to know each other pretty well as she would come my room fairly often (to visit my roommate and I, and to study with him).

This past weekend, I was visiting my friend, her boyfriend, for Thanksgiving, and she went home to talk to her parents and sort things out. A few weeks ago she disobeyed them by travelling to Georgia to visit my friend. Things have been very rocky between her and her parents, and my friend and I were constantly talking to her on the phone or online because she was very distressed and frustrated with her parents. They have been trying to keep her under their rules and are using the money they give her for tuition, etc, as leverage against her to follow those rules. She has kind of made a stand against them, saying that if it means that they disown her and she has to support herself, she will assume the responsibility and become independent of them. A lot of it has to do with her boyfriend, my friend, not being the same race as they are. In the process, she has been in need of emotional support and she hasn't really been getting it. I knew that if I were to be the one to give it to her, my actions would make me "the friend", and it would be that way forever. This was also irrelevant, but it was hard for me to accept, although I decided it was the best thing to do. She asked me to come spend the night at her house and to ride home with her today, and I did. We spent a lot of time talking to each other last night and actually getting to know each other better. The entire time I could feel her shifting me into the category of "friends."

***The whole thing that is bothering me is that I have a very hard time going from being attracted to someone to just being friends with them. Since last year, I have only come to like this girl more, but the whole thing is hopeless because she's dating one of my best friends, and if she weren't, she would still be his ex-girlfriend, and that is off-limits as well. For me, I have never completely thought of her as a friend, which I'm sure she has picked up subtle indications of. Whether she feels the same way, I don't know, but that is kind of irrelevant at this point. I really like her, I can't deny that.

In the past, if I became interested in a girl and it didn't work out, I would generally not remain in contact with her very much and things would be fine. Now, however, we are very close to each other and we care about each other, so that is not going to happen. Even if I wanted to, we share the same group of friends so I would still see her quite a bit. I really do want to be her friend. In fact, I have been playing that role perfectly. But I am still attracted to her. It can be painful to see her embracing my friend or even acknowledging their relationship, knowing that I will not get the chance to share that with her. I am reminded of how Dagny leaves Hank Rearden for John Galt, but how Rearden will always care for Dagny.

Trying to think rationally, I have accepted all of it. I know that the two of them are going to be together, will probably break up in a few months, but that I will still be friends with her and no matter what, it will have to stay that way. But how do I get over it? It seems that most people would be able to simply move on and forget about it, but I can't and I don't see that happening any time soon... I have been in a similar situation in the past, the only remedy was that the girl in that case moved quite some distance.

Maybe I'm just rambling, but this has been a very complex situation and difficult for me to untangle. If you feel like posting comments, I would greatly appreciate it, although it really helped just for me to write this.

Edited November 26, 2005 by tnunamak

[Dagny]

Something similar to this happened to me in high school. A girl I was good friends with asked out the guy I had been flirting with the day before I did. I was not aware that they had just initiated a relationship the day before. I let him know how I felt about him the next day. I was completely crushed when he told me he was already taken. It was weeks before I could look at them together without tearing up a bit. It was also hard because the three of us had the same circle of friends. I did have to distance myself for a while (a couple of weeks). However, after a few months I had found someone else I liked even better. So I suppose that helped me get over him. I was still attracted to him and had he been single I would've gone out with him in an instant. I was glad that I had at least told him how I felt because it's worse when you never even let them know how you felt (IMO).

The interesting thing is that months later that same guy wrote in my yearbook that he thought I was one of the most attractive girls in the school and that he considered it an honor that I even thought of him that way. He was really sweet. Since then we went to the same college and have gone through similar life experiences and become closer friends. I'm glad I was able to get over him and instead found a lifelong friend. I don't know if this helps you any. All I wanted to say is that you can get over it eventually and you can become friends with that girl. I hope everything works out for you.

[BurgessLau]

But how do I get over it? It seems that most people would be able to simply move on and forget about it, but I can't and I don't see that happening any time soon... I have been in a similar situation in the past [...]

I can suggest a general way for getting over any loss:

1. Go for a long walk (or series of walks) and review your hierarchy of values, concentrating on the most important ones (and including the one for which you recently suffered a loss).

2. Focus on the value that you lost, in one form or another, by asking yourself what the value is -- in other words, make sure you know its nature.

3. With the value clearly defined, review your plan for achieving that value.

4. If you don't have a step-by-step plan for achieving that value, then develop a plan.

5. With the plan developed, take the first step in the plan and so forth.

In summary, the way to get over a loss is to get busy achieving the value.

The alternative is to disengage your mind, feel sorry for yourself, and drag yourself through life missing out on happiness -- which comes from the active pursuit as well as achievement of values.

[Farrier]

I can suggest a general way for getting over any loss:

1. Go for a long walk (or series of walks) and review your hierarchy of values, concentrating on the most important ones (and including the one for which you recently suffered a loss).

2. Focus on the value that you lost, in one form or another, by asking yourself what the value is -- in other words, make sure you know its nature.

3. With the value clearly defined, review your plan for achieving that value.

4. If you don't have a step-by-step plan for achieving that value, then develop a plan.

5. With the plan developed, take the first step in the plan and so forth.

In summary, the way to get over a loss is to get busy achieving the value.

The alternative is to disengage your mind, feel sorry for yourself, and drag yourself through life missing out on happiness -- which comes from the active pursuit as well as achievement of values.

I have to say this strategy is excellent and one I have in the past used. I would also like to add that if there was a relationship that failed and you are trying to get over understand that you may have stopped demonstrating a value the other person required. Try to evaluate the situation as impartially as possible, find the root of what changed and understand it.

[Eternal]

I like BurgessLau's 5 steps - definitely a great advice. From my personal experience, there's been really only two ways I could get over a lost love.

1. Cut all contact. Get rid of the pictures, letters, e-mails, cell-phone numbers, gifts, pretty much anything that makes you want to break down and cry. You don't need to burn it, my approach has been packing it all up into a box, and shoving it in the furthest corner of my basement. What may seem like a nightmare right now, will one day be a nice memory of the good times past.

2. Find someone new. I know - easy to say. But while step one will help you function normally, you will only be able to fully get over your ex, if you have someone new to replace her with.

I'm sure there are people out there who can become friends with their ex's, but I can't even fathom such arrangement. Once I love someone romantically, I could never go back to thinking about them as just a friend, and seeing her with another guy, would be equivalent to having needles pierce my heart.

So unless you are a saint, you may want to start thinking about how to cut the contact with her - telling her how you feel wouldn't hurt either - at least you wouldn't be the bad guy that left her for no reason...

Edited November 27, 2005 by Eternal

[Thales]

Maybe I'm just rambling, but this has been a very complex situation and difficult for me to untangle. If you feel like posting comments, I would greatly appreciate it, although it really helped just for me to write this.

I think it all depends upon how much you like and want the girl. If I had a strong like (perhaps love) for a girl, I certainly wouldn't give up on her. That is, if she seems irreplaceable, then I wouldn't give up. How far you go depends on how much you want her. Perhaps this is just a personal thing for me, but that would be my attitude.

If, otoh, you believe you can find as much or more elsewhere, then I'd do that. To ease the process, see if you can find another girl to replace some of the missing value.

[ColdWontRise]

Ive been in a situation similar to this. Very recently a girl Ive known and loved for 3 years left me for another guy.

Our relationship and friendship had been on and off over the years, which initially began as an intense 2 month relationship. Through the years, weve dated other people, but she was always in the back of my mind. Id date other people and think "they arent as good as her." Finally as we grew as people, we really started to go head over heels for eachother again. It was around the time I started reading Atlas Shrugged, so we learned a lot from eachother, especially when she began to read as well. However, as we learned more, we became more aware of eachothers faults and their nature. When we understood them, we stopped sanctioning them in eachother. Some days Id be "on it" and quite ruthless about it, other days, she would. She met someone who was a natural, someone who was raised right and had very few false premises in their character. She went for them, as she had more to gain from him than I.

Most people, when a relationship ends, try to ignor the problem, rather than analyze its cause. Filling the gap with someone else does NOT fix the problem. The relief you have is generally an excuse to ignor your problem. The rationale is "someone really values me, I couldnt be that bad." Generally people have some very nice qualities, but at the root of them there are contradictory premises. At first you may be adored by someone, but as things develope, people become more exposed. This method is like fixing a leak by bailing the water.

Recollect situations and converstions you have had in the past, reread online conversations (if you have logging) and look at what was motivating you to say what you said. Same goes for them. What were you thinking about? What facts were you/they avoiding? Often that rotten feeling you get is when someone calls you on what youre trying to do. Other times they may have tried to wear you down emotionally, to make you feel guilty for things you did right. Dont go on the premise that you wont find anything wrong with your actions, quick way to get a self-fufilling prophecy. Analyze your actions as you would a math problem, be willing to make any changes that are nessesary. Sometimes making a change in your character involves changing a whole slew of other things that are barely related. Cant have your cake and eat it too, though.

In my time without her, Ive grown far more than I would without her. I looked at my problems, some of which Ive carried since childhood, deeply analyzed exactly which of my actions were causing the self-denial later on, then I figured out what motivated those actions, etc. Im still on this quest, but the point is that you must be ruthlessly rational with yourself. You may have a few really bad nights, but ultimately you find that none of the pain is nessesary.

[A.West]

Getting over this kind of thing:

1) focus on developing yourself into the person you want to be, pursuing your education, career, and other interests

2) as you do this, time will pass, and you will be happier, and have more opportunities of all kinds.

If someone had told me the same thing when I was 20, I don't think it would have helped that much. But things do work themselves out over time.

[Febod]

tnunamak,

You lost the battle as soon as you set your goal on getting one specific girl.

Think about it. Another's thoughts, actions, and desires are ultimately outside your control, so it's rather immature to chase after one girl. If she doesn't like you, then just move on. There are plenty of great women out there.

The only real way to rectify your situation is to learn from it and make sure it never happens again. Next time something like this happens, be indifferent to the outcome. When you do this, all sorts of wonderful things will happen, trust me.

And don't feel bad about this. You're probably thinking you're a loser who will never be happy in relationships. Don't worry, every man has been in your position, so just remember that this is nothing but grist for the mill.

[ColdWontRise]

Next time something like this happens, be indifferent to the outcome.

That will only work when he understands why he should feel indifferent, if he should.

[Thales]

I have this impression that there is resignation of defeat before a real effort has been given. He's not gone through a three year relationship. He's not even dated her. This is far too passive an approach. Would Cyrano do this? I think not.

If you value someone that much, then pursue them. Live as a value pursuer.

I will say this, if I liked a girl and she was steering things in the "only friend" category, I'd move it in the other direction. If she persisted, I'd just cut off any relationship with her at all. Done right, this can cause the girl to be more attracted to you and come to you, because you’ve made it clear by your actions that you do value her in a certain context.

If you’ve made a real effort and it doesn’t work, fine. But, where is the effort? Perhaps I’ve missed something.

[Febod]

I have this impression that there is resignation of defeat before a real effort has been given. He's not gone through a three year relationship. He's not even dated her. This is far too passive an approach. Would Cyrano do this? I think not.

The problem isn't putting in the effort, it's having the wrong mindset, or the wrong goal to which one applies that effort. What a girl thinks of you is ultimately outside your control, so it's my contention that trying to get a girl to like you, and have that be your ultimate goal is immature. Having this mindset is an instance of megalomania, and it disrespects her personal, private space which cannot be controlled by anyone but her. And really, what a girl, or anyone else thinks of you is none of your business, unless she chooses to make it your business.

Yeah, Cyrano didn't have this mindset when it came to women which was his tragic flaw. This ultimately made him unhappy and he died before he got the girl. But he did have this mindset with regard to his poetry. He wasn't concerned with what other people thought of it, he wasn't concerned with being successful. He was only concerned with having merit, because he was able to recognize that his merit was ultimately the only aspect of his life that he could control, not his success.

Edited November 30, 2005 by Febod

[Thales]

The problem isn't putting in the effort, it's having the wrong mindset, or the wrong goal to which one applies that effort. What a girl thinks of you is ultimately outside your control, so it's my contention that trying to get a girl to like you, and have that be your ultimate goal is immature.

This is wrong. You can certainly win a girl over and it can take time and effort. It's been done and is done every day. You may not do it, but you won't know unless you try. Of course you don't have control over her mind, but this is why you have to win her over.

Having this mindset is an instance of megalomania, and it disrespects her personal, private space which cannot be controlled by anyone but her.

"Meglomania"? That's just bunk. Pursuing a goal with the intent of winning a girl over means respecting her fully. You can pursue a girl and respect her "space".

And really, what a girl, or anyone else thinks of you is none of your business, unless she chooses to make it your business.

If you really value a girl, then you should pursue her. You do it while respecting her rights, but you can certainly do it and it can well be worth the effort. It's entirely your business to do so.

What you're arguing for is a passive life, as if values just drop into your lap.

Yeah, Cyrano didn't have this mindset when it came to women which was his tragic flaw. This ultimately made him unhappy and he died before he got the girl. But he did have this mindset with regard to his poetry. He wasn't concerned with what other people thought of it, he wasn't concerned with being successful. He was only concerned with having merit, because he was able to recognize that his merit was ultimately the only aspect of his life that he could control, not his success.

Cyrano pursued a girl and he won her heart. He was proactive in the matter.

The point I'm making is that you have to make at least an effort to achieve the values you want in life. The greater the value, the greater the effort that should be exerted. Being passive is a mistake.

[tnunamak]

I can suggest a general way for getting over any loss:

1. Go for a long walk (or series of walks) and review your hierarchy of values, concentrating on the most important ones (and including the one for which you recently suffered a loss).

2. Focus on the value that you lost, in one form or another, by asking yourself what the value is -- in other words, make sure you know its nature.

3. With the value clearly defined, review your plan for achieving that value.

4. If you don't have a step-by-step plan for achieving that value, then develop a plan.

5. With the plan developed, take the first step in the plan and so forth.

In summary, the way to get over a loss is to get busy achieving the value.

The alternative is to disengage your mind, feel sorry for yourself, and drag yourself through life missing out on happiness -- which comes from the active pursuit as well as achievement of values.

Thanks for this, I think that will definitely be a step in the right direction.

I like BurgessLau's 5 steps - definitely a great advice. From my personal experience, there's been really only two ways I could get over a lost love.

1. Cut all contact. Get rid of the pictures, letters, e-mails, cell-phone numbers, gifts, pretty much anything that makes you want to break down and cry. You don't need to burn it, my approach has been packing it all up into a box, and shoving it in the furthest corner of my basement. What may seem like a nightmare right now, will one day be a nice memory of the good times past.

2. Find someone new. I know - easy to say. But while step one will help you function normally, you will only be able to fully get over your ex, if you have someone new to replace her with.

I'm sure there are people out there who can become friends with their ex's, but I can't even fathom such arrangement. Once I love someone romantically, I could never go back to thinking about them as just a friend, and seeing her with another guy, would be equivalent to having needles pierce my heart.

So unless you are a saint, you may want to start thinking about how to cut the contact with her - telling her how you feel wouldn't hurt either - at least you wouldn't be the bad guy that left her for no reason...

I cannot cut all contact without alienating myself from all of my friends and physically moving to another location. Of course I could probably severely limit the amount of contact we are in, but I still think it would come at a greater cost than benefit.

Just because I like this girl doesn't mean I've blinded myself to everyone else. I will keep looking, although I'm not going to compromise my standards by "replacing" her with whoever I can get at the moment.

There are certain things that I find romantically attractive... but they are not very dependant on context, they are dependant mostly on character. Generally character doesn't change, so if I like someone -- I will probably like them for as long as they don't change, and as long as my standards don't change. I think this is also what you mean when you say that you can't go back to thinking about someone as a friend.

I think it all depends upon how much you like and want the girl. If I had a strong like (perhaps love) for a girl, I certainly wouldn't give up on her. That is, if she seems irreplaceable, then I wouldn't give up. How far you go depends on how much you want her. Perhaps this is just a personal thing for me, but that would be my attitude.

If, otoh, you believe you can find as much or more elsewhere, then I'd do that. To ease the process, see if you can find another girl to replace some of the missing value.

If I were to pursue something with her, it would cause more harm than good, and that is assuming that she would even decide to give up on her boyfriend, one of my best friends... I have ruled that out.

Most people, when a relationship ends, try to ignor the problem, rather than analyze its cause. Filling the gap with someone else does NOT fix the problem. The relief you have is generally an excuse to ignor your problem. The rationale is "someone really values me, I couldnt be that bad." Generally people have some very nice qualities, but at the root of them there are contradictory premises. At first you may be adored by someone, but as things develope, people become more exposed. This method is like fixing a leak by bailing the water.

Recollect situations and converstions you have had in the past, reread online conversations (if you have logging) and look at what was motivating you to say what you said. Same goes for them. What were you thinking about? What facts were you/they avoiding? Often that rotten feeling you get is when someone calls you on what youre trying to do. Other times they may have tried to wear you down emotionally, to make you feel guilty for things you did right. Dont go on the premise that you wont find anything wrong with your actions, quick way to get a self-fufilling prophecy. Analyze your actions as you would a math problem, be willing to make any changes that are nessesary. Sometimes making a change in your character involves changing a whole slew of other things that are barely related. Cant have your cake and eat it too, though.

In my time without her, Ive grown far more than I would without her. I looked at my problems, some of which Ive carried since childhood, deeply analyzed exactly which of my actions were causing the self-denial later on, then I figured out what motivated those actions, etc. Im still on this quest, but the point is that you must be ruthlessly rational with yourself. You may have a few really bad nights, but ultimately you find that none of the pain is nessesary.

I don't quite see what you are getting at. Do you mean to say that there is a problem with my character that is preventing me from getting over it? Could you elaborate a little?

Getting over this kind of thing:

1) focus on developing yourself into the person you want to be, pursuing your education, career, and other interests

2) as you do this, time will pass, and you will be happier, and have more opportunities of all kinds.

If someone had told me the same thing when I was 20, I don't think it would have helped that much. But things do work themselves out over time.

I have definitely not given up on developing my other interests, in fact school is definitely my focus right now.

tnunamak,

You lost the battle as soon as you set your goal on getting one specific girl.

Think about it. Another's thoughts, actions, and desires are ultimately outside your control, so it's rather immature to chase after one girl. If she doesn't like you, then just move on. There are plenty of great women out there.

The only real way to rectify your situation is to learn from it and make sure it never happens again. Next time something like this happens, be indifferent to the outcome. When you do this, all sorts of wonderful things will happen, trust me.

And don't feel bad about this. You're probably thinking you're a loser who will never be happy in relationships. Don't worry, every man has been in your position, so just remember that this is nothing but grist for the mill.

I don't think you could have misunderstood me more. Firstly, I never said I set a goal to get any girl, other than a long term one which I had already made. Also, I never said I was trying to get her to like me. That would be pointless because the situation would not allow for anything to happen anyway. In addition, I am trying to move on, that was the point of my post.

How can one simply "be indifferent" to the outcome of a situation? Like I have said, I have already rationalized why I need to move on and get passed it, but unfortunately emotion is not necessarily prompted by rationalization. Other things play a part in that. I am having no self esteem issues, I don't feel like a loser, I just want to get over the girl that, because of various factors, I simply cannot be with at this point.

I have this impression that there is resignation of defeat before a real effort has been given. He's not gone through a three year relationship. He's not even dated her. This is far too passive an approach. Would Cyrano do this? I think not.

If you value someone that much, then pursue them. Live as a value pursuer.

I will say this, if I liked a girl and she was steering things in the "only friend" category, I'd move it in the other direction. If she persisted, I'd just cut off any relationship with her at all. Done right, this can cause the girl to be more attracted to you and come to you, because youve made it clear by your actions that you do value her in a certain context.

If youve made a real effort and it doesnt work, fine. But, where is the effort? Perhaps Ive missed something.

Again, my goal is not to get the girl... my goal is to get over the girl. Why don't I steer things away from the "friends" category? Because she would have to leave one of my best friends for me, creating many complications.

[mweiss]

Here's my two cents: it helps if you keep yourself busy with hobbies and goals in life. Find some activity that you enjoy and persue it aggressively.

When I was young, I was so friggin ugly that mothers would shield their children as I walk by them in the supermarket. All through HS and even into the work years, I never could get a date. I tried dating services and found only other people with screwed up psychoepistomology and no self-esteem, also ugly as heck, or they weighed 200lbs more than their proper weight.

I became sort of perverted over the years, getting interested in extreme sound systems and blasting myself to pieces with bass. It became a way of life and it was sort of my "sex" activity, if you could stretch your imagination a bit.

Well, thirty some years after HS ended, I finally met my betrothed in the Philippines. She didn't care so much about looks as about values and ethics. We had instant chemistry and, well, we got married, went through the whole immigration process (another story!) and her we are, with a beautiful daughter of our own. While it's true that I may not be around to see her graduate HS, at least I hope to be able to steer her in the direction of rationality and getting a good education on learning how to THINK.

The wife and I have a good relationship where we feel completely relaxed and can be ourselves without putting on any act.

Oh yeah, I still have to get my dose of Bass now and then, but the married life is great.

When I think back to the stupid crushes I had in HS to about age 39 or so, all 108 of them, I think it was rather silly and childish.

In the grand scheme of things, this girl that's got you head over heels is nothing. 50 years from now you'll barely remember her.

[Thales]

Again, my goal is not to get the girl... my goal is to get over the girl. Why don't I steer things away from the "friends" category? Because she would have to leave one of my best friends for me, creating many complications.

Okay, if that's your hierarchy of values, I can't argue with you. You'll get over it simply with time and by diverting your attention elsewhere, especially to other girls.

Edited December 1, 2005 by Thales

[softwareNerd]

I just re-read your original post. From what you say, there was a point in time when the girl knew that you and your buddy were interested in her. Knowing this, she chose him for romance. So, when you say:

Why don't I steer things away from the "friends" category? Because she would have to leave one of my best friends for me, creating many complications

I agree with the first part about not pursuing a romantic relationship with her, but not because of the reason you state; rather, because you did start that "pursuit", but she chose him.

The one thing that stood out like a red flag in what you wrote is this:

I know that the two of them are going to be together, will probably break up in a few months

You haven't said why you think they'll break up so soon. Parental pressure? If she was with you, would she be breaking up in a few months too? Why or why not?

[Thales]

I just re-read your original post. From what you say, there was a point in time when the girl knew that you and your buddy were interested in her. Knowing this, she chose him for romance. So, when you say:

I agree with the first part about not pursuing a romantic relationship with her, but not because of the reason you state; rather, because you did start that "pursuit", but she chose him.

People change their minds all of the time. Girls change their minds all of the time. if a girl is a tremendous value to you, then pursue her to the extent you value her.

The point is that tnunamak has decided, all things considered, that he doesn't want her, which is fair enough.