Naked-marriage-sex Ban

[Capitalism Forever]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17789981-13762,00.html

AN Egyptian cleric's controversial fatwa claiming that nudity during sexual intercourse invalidates a marriage has uncovered a rift among Islamic scholars.

According to the religious edict issued by Rashad Hassan Khalil, a former dean of Al-Azhar University's faculty of Sharia (or Islamic law), "being completely naked during the act of coitus annuls the marriage".

You gotta give these folks one thing, they cannot be faulted with not being able to think out of the box.

[gags]

Well, I guess this gives new meaning to the phrase "wear a raincoat" during sex.

[stonebuddha]

This is one of the reasons why Islam will fail in the long run - its edicts go against human nature. Of course like socialism, it may take civilization down & kill millions along the way before it ultimately crashes & burns.

[Inspector]

Okay, too many funny responses for this so I will list a few:

“Gotcha. Wear a cowboy hat.”

“If there’s whipped cream involved, does that count as naked?”

“I like lingerie as much as the next man, but I think this guy’s fetish is a little out of control.”

“Yes, ‘Islamic Scholars’ are going to have to ‘research’ this… suuuuuuuure, that’s why they’re renting ‘Naughty College Girls 6.’”

This stuff practically writes itself.

[softwareNerd]

You might have a second career there, Inspector. BTW. One of the scholars is recommending blankets!

This is one of the reasons why Islam will fail in the long run - its edicts go against human nature. Of course like socialism, it may take civilization down & kill millions along the way before it ultimately crashes & burns.

In a demonstration of free-will and volition, humans can live, eat and breed while doing many other things that are against their nature. These kinds of people have been around for thousands of years. I think what really bugs them is that their people can now look out and see other people really living. In that sense, the west is truly the source of their (the leaders') problem.

[stonebuddha]

Can't we air drop porn onto their lands? Great way to recycle old mags. In a battle between the intellect & raw sexuality, sex wins every time. I'm sure we can get some enterprising magazine publishers to help out.

[Inspector]

You might have a second career there, Inspector.

You should see my reaction to the Pope's criticism of Christmas "commercialism."

I can keep going:

“Presumably, furry animal costumes still okay.”

“The Cleric goes on to suggest you call him ‘Big Sheik’ and that he’s got a fatwa in his pants for you.”

[AisA]

This fatwa does not surprise me. Islam is a religion of fatwas – thousands and thousands of religious rules governing the smallest details of one’s existence. Islam leaves virtually nothing to the discretion or judgment of its followers; thinking is forbidden.

At IslamOnline.net, online fatwa sessions are held two or three times a week. Muslims submit questions online and various Muslim clerics cite the appropriate fatwa (religious ruling) that governs the situation. Over the last 5&1/2 years, the clerics at this web site have “issued” over 10,000 such rulings. Now, many of these rulings are redundant – the same question may be asked many times – but even allowing for this, there are still thousands of rules governing the life of a Muslim.

To get a feel for the utterly mindless and suffocating nature of Islam, go HERE and read some of the fatwa sessions.

[gags]

I wonder if any Muslims are troubled by events like the recent stampede at the Hajj, where 363 people were trampled. Here's a quick summary of the fun and games that have gone on in recent years when Muslims party it up in Mecca:

Last year, about 250 people were killed in a stampede.

In 1997 a fire in Mina (near Mecca) killed 343 pilgrims and injured 1,500.

In 1994 a stampede near Jamarat bridge killed at least 270 pilgrims.

In 1990 a stampede in a crowded tunnel leading to holy sites killed a whopping 1,426 pilgrims. This was a particularly tough year for Allah.

In 1987 about 400 people were killed - mainly Iranian Shia pilgrims - in clashes with Saudi security forces.

With mindlessness often comes death.

[stonebuddha]

Speaking as a former muslim from Indonesia (which has the highest % of muslims in the world) - Islam is extremely sufficating.

When I was about 6 or 7, I read that it is forbidden to draw pictures of animals because after all, only Allah can create such creatures. It is therefore blashphemy for us lowly humans to emulate his creation. Don't even get me started on the overly irrational fear of pork, the endless washing/praying rituals, and the fasting insanity.

Being a good Christian is a cake walk compared to being a good Muslim, in terms of the amount of work necessary.

Edited January 13, 2006 by stonebuddha

[softwareNerd]

... nothing to the discretion or judgment of its followers; thinking is forbidden. At IslamOnline.net, ...

The samples I read were good examples of a dogmatic religion, still interpreting their books literally, rather than allegorically.

An example that I learnt from my reading: the prophet made a negative comment about rich folk who are proud and who make displays of their weath. As an example, he spoke of rich folk who wore long robes that dragged along the ground, in a show of carelessness in regard to the amount of fabric used and the damage done to it. A friend of the prophet used to wear long robes, and pointed that out to the prophet, to which the latter replied that in his case it was okay, because it was not done from pride.

In this example, the prophet had the opportunity to point to the principle behind the concrete. In spite of this, many people continue to interpret this as meaning that a good muslim must never wear pants that go below the ankle. On scholar says: above the ankle is good, at the ankle is okay, but below the ankle is not good.

Obviously, there are many other examples where the phrophet never clarified the principles behind the concretes, so muslims seem to simply be following the concretes.

I don't know enough about the bible, but I'm guessing it too can be read as having a lot of concrete injunctions. However, Christianity has been able to move much more away from the concrete injunctions and toward principles (whether true or false). I wonder when that happened in the history of the church, and whether there is a chance that the same can happen in Islam. A comparison with Judaism would also be interesting.

[Unconquered]

I wonder if any Muslims are troubled by events like the recent stampede at the Hajj, where 363 people were trampled.

Why should they be? Their version of heaven awaits...

Personally it reminds me of a lawyer joke.

Q. What do you call 1,000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea?

A. A good start.

[Melior]

This is one of the reasons why Islam will fail in the long run - its edicts go against human nature. Of course like socialism, it may take civilization down & kill millions along the way before it ultimately crashes & burns.

I hate to say this, but Christianity isn't much better. Just look at it--past and present--and tell me that all the crimes and intolerances perpetrated in the name of God and the Church were, and are, humane.

“They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” -- Thomas Jefferson

[Capitalism Forever]

I wonder when that happened in the history of the church

It was Thomas Aquinas that set it all in motion.

Calvin's determinist doctrines also contributed to liberating man's will, but they did it by means of denying its existence. The Calvinist universe is a dismally malevolent one, where God decides whether you will go to heaven or hell even before you are born, and nothing you do on earth can change your ultimate fate. So, since your actions in this life do not make any difference with regard to your salvation, you might as well enjoy yourself while you're here. I don't know whether Calvin meant his teachings to have this effect, but they did, and I think we can be glad that he was there to overshadow Luther and save us from a reversion to Augustinianism.

and whether there is a chance that the same can happen in Islam.

Sea changes like this take centuries, so I don't think we'll see one in our lifetimes. Plus, Islam does not have the kind of ideological monopoly today that Christianity had in Europe back then; Muslims are aware that there are alternatives to the metaphysics they are taught. So those among them who are open to pro-reason ideas are likelier to turn to the already-existing Western ideologies (Objectivism?) than to embrace a reformed version of Islam.

[softwareNerd]

Islam does not have the kind of ideological monopoly today that Christianity had in Europe back then; Muslims are aware that there are alternatives to the metaphysics they are taught. So those among them who are open to pro-reason ideas are likelier to turn to the already-existing Western ideologies (Objectivism?) than to embrace a reformed version of Islam.

You're right. However, it still takes a leader to galvanize people along a more liberal axis. I gather that there are slightly different streams within Islam: Shia, Sunni are the two major divisions, but there's much more to it. The most likely way that Islam will change is if a leader of one of the more liberal sects makes more of a push toward liberalism in the form of: allegorical and contextual interpretations of the Quran, rather than literal interpretations. Such a person will not be a non-Muslim, but he'll make a basic change of course... like a "Gorbachev of Islam", perhaps?

On the other hand, is guys like Sadr win Islam may go backward.

[gags]

The most likely way that Islam will change is if a leader of one of the more liberal sects makes more of a push toward liberalism in the form of: allegorical and contextual interpretations of the Quran, rather than literal interpretations. Such a person will not be a non-Muslim, but he'll make a basic change of course... like a "Gorbachev of Islam", perhaps?

That would have to be a very brave individual. Islam isn't showing many signs of embracing anyone who might push for a more liberal, less fundamentalist agenda. It's fairly likely that such an individual (if one exists) would either be blown up or have his head sawed off. Dontcha just get a warm feeling thinking about religion?

[softwareNerd]

I remember that there was an Iraqi religious leader who was supposedly a relatively liberal guy. In the early days after the US had gone in, this guy returned from abroad (I think he was in exile). He was assassinated within days.

The US made a mistake not killing Sadr.

[gags]

That's the very sad thing about the current situation over there. The ONLY thing most of these people understand is violence and it's the only thing they respect. They've abandoned reason, so what else is there but guns and bombs?

[Capitalism Forever]

Why should they be? Their version of heaven awaits...

Question is only, what will those 72 virgins be wearing while they perform their services?

That would have to be a very brave individual.

Well, there do seem to be some truly brave individuals in Iran. It is primarily them that I had in mind when I wrote about "those who are more open to pro-reason ideas."

I hate to say this, but Christianity isn't much better. Just look at it--past and present[...]

Past, sure ... but as far as the present is concerned, I'd much rather live in a certain nation where a supermajority of the people call themselves Christians than in one where Muslims have a simple plurality.

There is a world of a difference between Pure Evil and Evil Light, and you ignore it at your own peril.

[softwareNerd]

Well, there do seem to be some truly brave individuals in Iran. It is primarily them that I had in mind when I wrote about "those who are more open to pro-reason ideas."

It would appear odd, but I think it would not be altogether surprising, if Iran, as the country that was most willing to take their religious ideas to the extreme, would also be the one to lead the reversal. Impossible to predict if the current regime will push Iran back further, or if they'll push until the rest of their countrymen decide they've reached a "tipping point".

[DavidV]

This is one of the reasons why Islam will fail in the long run - its edicts go against human nature.

Islam has been around for 1200 years and it has billions of followers - just how long are we talking about?

[The Wrath]

I came in here expecting this to be about Mormonism.

As for "failing in the long-run" goes...I dunno. Christianity has been around for 2000 years and it doesn't show any sign of slowing down. How long were the Hellenistic religions around before they diminished?