"Cheating"

[kufa]

I am currently enrolled at a public high school. A friend and I are considering pooling our efforts in our history (AP!)class. The class basically consists of our teacher lecturing, giving us a study guide with all of the questions that will be on the test, and the tests themselves. Would it be immoral for each of us to do half of the work in the packet and copy the rest, if so, why? Note that niether of us are planning to use history in our careers, or in any other way.

Edited December 5, 2006 by kufa

[DavidOdden]

Why are you even taking the course, in that case? I'd say that there is a prior immorality issue for you to grapple with, in being enrolled in such a course. Do you believe that the world owes you a living, that you shouldn't have to work, that life is not a value (something that you act to gain or keep)? Do you seek the unearned -- wold you prefer that someone hand you a certificate saying that you are "just as good" as a student who actually worked his way through 4 years of college and really did the work without cheating?

There are technical schools where you can focus on learning your trade skills, whatever it is you want to be when you grow up. You do not need to take a history class or any other non-essential class. So it is pointless for you to be taking this history course, since it's completely unrelated to anything of any interest to you, and I really urge you to drop out of that class (possibly high school altogether) so that you can focus on pursuing what you have come to realise is your central purpose.

[LaszloWalrus]

I am currently enrolled at a public high school. A friend and I are considering pooling our efforts in our history (AP!)class. The class basically consists of our teacher lecturing, giving us a study guide with all of the questions that will be on the test, and the tests themselves. Would it be immoral for each of us to do half of the work in the packet and copy the rest, if so, why? Note that niether of us are planning to use history in our careers, or in any other way.

If the teaher considers it cheating, then it is wrong.

[Blinky]

I have a bit similar problem. I study university where it´s quite normal to cheat. Especially in some subjects. I think that I have far better knowledge than the others do. The problem is that because they cheat I have worse grades than they do. Do you think that it woild be immoral in this case to cheat? I do not like cheating and I have never done that but I don´t like having worse grades than my stupid schoolmates too.

[DavidOdden]

Do you think that it woild be immoral in this case to cheat?

Yes.

[DarkWaters]

I have a bit similar problem. I study university where it´s quite normal to cheat. Especially in some subjects. I think that I have far better knowledge than the others do. The problem is that because they cheat I have worse grades than they do. Do you think that it woild be immoral in this case to cheat?

Absolutely. As an instructor for an undergraduate class myself, I just want to highlight that in many cases it is very easy to identify students who are cheating, especially in technical subjects where all work must be explained. It may be frustrating at times to see many of your classmates ostensibly cheat. However, making an extra diligent effort to comprehend difficult material as opposed to just regurgitating answers will pay off immensely during the job application process, a graduate school application process and just in life in general.

My nonlinear optimization Professor expressed these sentiments perfectly when he inferred that many individuals were cheating: "students should aspire to add to the knowledge on the internet; not take from it."

Sometimes if the cheating is rampant enough where you perceive that it is adversely effecting your grades, I would consider addressing a higher authority (e.g. your TA, your instructor, et cetera.)

Edited December 7, 2006 by DarkWaters

[Blinky]

Absolutely. As an instructor for an undergraduate class myself, I just want to highlight that in many cases it is very easy to identify students who are cheating, especially in technical subjects where all work must be explained. It may be frustrating at times to see many of your classmates ostensibly cheat. However, making an extra diligent effort to comprehend difficult material as opposed to just regurgitating answers will pay off immensely during the job application process, a graduate school application process and just in life in general.

My nonlinear optimization Professor expressed these sentiments perfectly when he inferred that many individuals were cheating: "students should aspire to add to the knowledge on the internet; not take from it."

Sometimes if the cheating is rampant enough where you perceive that it is adversely effecting your grades, I would consider addressing a higher authority (e.g. your TA, your instructor, et cetera.)

Problem is that even some teachers don´t care about cheating during tests. By some university rules, it´s of course banned but there are teachers who let students cheat. Thus I kave quite good knowledge of the subject but when I don´t cheat I still have worse grades. I guess I won´t have problem with passing the subjects but still I think it´s unfair when others have better grades, easier position during oral examination and can even have money from good results even though I am better.

[softwareNerd]

Blinky, I'm curious... when you say other students cheat, is this a widespread problem? What percentage of students in your college cheat, in your best estimate? Of the top 10% in the class, what percentage would not be in that 10% if they had not cheated; again, what's your best guess? (When I was in college, the bulk of the cheats were trying to move themselves from the lowest 10% to somewhere near the middle of the class.)

[RationalBiker]

Problem is that even some teachers don´t care about cheating during tests. By some university rules, it´s of course banned but there are teachers who let students cheat. Thus I kave quite good knowledge of the subject but when I don´t cheat I still have worse grades. I guess I won´t have problem with passing the subjects but still I think it´s unfair when others have better grades, easier position during oral examination and can even have money from good results even though I am better.

Isn't your most important consideration whether or not you are learning and retaining the material you need to learn?

Yes, cheating is unfair. Do you want good grades now or a brighter prospect of a job later when you can actually demonstrate knowledge of your chosen occupation?

[kufa]

david odden: I do not think the world owes me anything. I should have specified a little more. Basically what we are doing is both reading all of the chapters but splitting finding the answers. We are still "learning" the same amount of material, just without doing all of the work. And as to dropping the class, the AP class actually has less work than the regular (which makes no sense).

Blinky: In most knowledge based classes (math, science, spanish) I have lower grades than the stupid kids. My problem is that I get the highest test grades but seldom remember the homework.

[softwareNerd]

Phrasing Lazlo's remark as a question: Whatever you're doing, is it what the teacher expects you to be doing? Or, rather, if the teacher knew, would he think it's fine?

Edited December 8, 2006 by softwareNerd

[kufa]

Our teacher is really inconsistent. One minute he will say something, the next he contridicts it. But he does give us time to "collaborate" during class. Meaning he lets us ask eachother the answers to questions we don't know the answers to. I think he would think its alright because he is fine with kids who don't read and only look for answers.

[Nate]

"I study university where it´s quite normal to cheat."

I don't see how this is relevant. What would you advise if I said I lived in a neighborhood where is it quite normal to steal? You'd (hopefully) tell me that it doesn't mean stealing is ethical and that I should consider moving to a different neighborhood. Further, consider the consequences this has for you later on in life. You'd be cheating again every time you put that diploma on a job application, etc.

[DavidOdden]

Basically what we are doing is both reading all of the chapters but splitting finding the answers. We are still "learning" the same amount of material, just without doing all of the work. And as to dropping the class, the AP class actually has less work than the regular (which makes no sense).

The issue boils down to your self-respect. Would you take pride in someone else's work turned in under your name? That is, is pride for you a collective concept, or an individual one? Would you still respect yourself, as an honorable and intelligent person, if you claimed credit for the product of someone else's mind?

Of course I recognise that AP courses are becoming an abomination, a complete repudiation of everything they were intended to stand for. You can reject what they are and have nothing to do with them; or you can take such a course and actually do high level work, worthy of praise and special credit; or you can cheat, subvert the system, and help it to collapse under its own weight coming down because the foundations have rotten away. I think that which course you follow has to be determined by what kind of person you are.

[Blinky]

Blinky, I'm curious... when you say other students cheat, is this a widespread problem? What percentage of students in your college cheat, in your best estimate? Of the top 10% in the class, what percentage would not be in that 10% if they had not cheated; again, what's your best guess? (When I was in college, the bulk of the cheats were trying to move themselves from the lowest 10% to somewhere near the middle of the class.)

It´s widespread problem during tests. On other occasions it´s not possible. You can´t cheat during oral examination. I can´s estimate how much people wouldn´t be in top 10% because it´s my first year in that university. Anyway, if somebody wants to get A, he or she must either cheat during tests or learn much. It´s hard to don´t lose points during tests, because some minor mistake always occure even when somebody has a good knowledge.

In my opinion those who don´t have much knowledge cheat more. But among those who will get A will be many cheaters too.

Isn't your most important consideration whether or not you are learning and retaining the material you need to learn?

Yes, cheating is unfair. Do you want good grades now or a brighter prospect of a job later when you can actually demonstrate knowledge of your chosen occupation?

It´s much more important to have a knowledge rather than have good grades. But still I have to spend much more time than others beacuse I am not cheating - and I will get same or worse grade afterwards.

"I study university where it´s quite normal to cheat."

I don't see how this is relevant. What would you advise if I said I lived in a neighborhood where is it quite normal to steal? You'd (hopefully) tell me that it doesn't mean stealing is ethical and that I should consider moving to a different neighborhood. Further, consider the consequences this has for you later on in life. You'd be cheating again every time you put that diploma on a job application, etc.

Firstly, it was introduction to my situation. Secondly, why is it not relevant? When somebody would see my credential I won´t have it for less work in school or I wouldn´t know less than the others.

I don´t like cheating because I am not happy when I write a test well because of cheating - that´s the reason why I am trying not to cheat.

I hope my responses are at least a bit consistent and relevant. I don´t have much time to control it and correct mistakes because I have to study.

[RationalBiker]

It´s much more important to have a knowledge rather than have good grades. But still I have to spend much more time than others beacuse I am not cheating - and I will get same or worse grade afterwards.

But you will also have a more thorough understanding of the material which you recognize to be more important than the grade. Do what's right for you.

[softwareNerd]

It's widespread problem during tests.

I assume you know this based on some sample (of your friends or acquaintances). So, on the same basis (e.g. Scott and Peter are your two acquaintances who do not cheat, and they're the smartest ones in the group) it should be possible to make some guess about who cheats. I am not implying that it's okay to cheat if the smart guys cheat. I'm just trying to understand your situation a little better, particularly because you live in a different country and things might be wildly outside what I imagine. Also, when you say cheating, what's the typical process? Things like smuggling notes into the test-room, or is it collaborative (two people who sit side-by-side "sharing"), or is it predatory (making sure one sits where one can read what a bright guy is writing)?

On a separate point, it's quite likely that you're mistaken about the relationship between your grades and your future earning potential (even if some of the cheats get good starting salaries). I'm not sure what you're studying, but your basic effort should be to be the best you can at that subject and the most useful to a future employer. Are there things that future employers in your field look for other than scores?

[Blinky]

I assume you know this based on some sample (of your friends or acquaintances). So, on the same basis (e.g. Scott and Peter are your two acquaintances who do not cheat, and they're the smartest ones in the group) it should be possible to make some guess about who cheats. I am not implying that it's okay to cheat if the smart guys cheat. I'm just trying to understand your situation a little better, particularly because you live in a different country and things might be wildly outside what I imagine. Also, when you say cheating, what's the typical process? Things like smuggling notes into the test-room, or is it collaborative (two people who sit side-by-side "sharing"), or is it predatory (making sure one sits where one can read what a bright guy is writing)?

On a separate point, it's quite likely that you're mistaken about the relationship between your grades and your future earning potential (even if some of the cheats get good starting salaries). I'm not sure what you're studying, but your basic effort should be to be the best you can at that subject and the most useful to a future employer. Are there things that future employers in your field look for other than scores?

I will try to tell you more about the situation.

I study two universities - at one of them there´s no problem with cheating because there are mainly oral exams (to be sincere I haven´t written any test here - but my guess is that because of the small number of people and most of them being really smart there won´t be problem with cheating). At the other one - it´s business university - is cheating much more prevalent. There are basicly three reasons for it.

1) there is a large number of students (for instance there are 150 of us writing test at the same time)

2) people at that university aren´t much clever and many of them are not interested in the subject at all (the university is much often chosen as a last choice for someone who doesn´t know what to do)

3) some teachers don´t penalize cheating students - it´s sometimes even hard to know whether is something cheating or not (for instance math teacher told us that we should do the test alone but that we can speak if it won´t be too loud - what should one do with these information?)

My guess about the prevalence of cheating is from some information from internet - on student internet pages is assessment of teachers by students and half of them has in reason for good evaluation that one can cheat during tests. Another source of my information is murmur that one can hear during tests and look on others during that occasion. People have either crib or advise each other. Number of cheating people is different in every subject - it depends on benevolence of teacher and the possibility of not being discovered.

I am looking forward to higher grades because some selection of not-much-smart people will occure anyway so maybe the cheating will diminish too.

There are two things that I want to obtain at this university - knowledge and credential. I will surely gain knowledge because I like the subject and I love reading science books so I won´t be one of those who pass the university without knowing anything. On the other hand there are subjects which I like more and those which I like less, so if I have to study much more than the others in some subject that I don´t like just because I don´t cheat I don´t have time for studying something I like more and would be maybe much more important for me in future.

[RationalBiker]

Hehe, you don't go here do you?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/12/06/gr...h.ap/index.html

[Time_Maker]

Is it moral to cheat? Considering it sounds like you are being forced to take this class, that this class gives you no value, and that it is wasting your time, I would say .. No.

Why? Because the risk is too great compaired to the benefit. What I suggest doing is putting as little amount as possible in the class, to get a "C-" or whatever the passing score is. If you are caught cheating, you may get thrown out of school (I'm going to assume thats a bad thing, even though it might not be), and could hamper your future.

so don't cheat, just do as little as possible.

[Nate]

Is it moral to cheat? Considering it sounds like you are being forced to take this class, that this class gives you no value, and that it is wasting your time, I would say .. No.

Why? Because the risk is too great compaired to the benefit. What I suggest doing is putting as little amount as possible in the class, to get a "C-" or whatever the passing score is. If you are caught cheating, you may get thrown out of school (I'm going to assume thats a bad thing, even though it might not be), and could hamper your future.

so don't cheat, just do as little as possible.

WHAT? No. It is because cheating is wrong on principle. There is no possible benefit.

[softwareNerd]

... being forced to take this class, ...

What do you mean by "force" here? As an analogy, am I forced to work for my employer because I need the money? If not, where does the analogy break down? Alternatively, if that analogy is a good one, then is it analogous to a mugger forcing me to give him money? If not, what's the difference?

[Febod]

Just as an interesting sidenote, I heard Richard Dawkins on Penn Jillette's radio show discuss the stereotypical view of an atheist being an amoral social pariah who would step over anybody to get what he wants. (think Mr. Burns from the Simpsons)

Dawkins then cited a study where students were given the opportunity to cheat on a test and not get caught, and it turns out the atheists in the classroom turned down the bait more than the christians, jews, and other religious adherents.

btw, if you think cheating, no matter how innocent it may seem, is okay, then you need to re-evaluate the hierarchy of values you have chosen for yourself, or accepted blindly.

[Time_Maker]

Hey SoftwareNerd

In post number 22, you asked me to clarify what I mean by "forced", and if I was referring to the type of force of employment, or a mugger.

I didn't have any analogy in mind when I used the word "force", I used the term directly and honestly. The question was about an AP class. An AP class is a high school class that can be used for something... (what that something is, I have no idea. I think it has to do with the SAT test?).

I wasn't focused on the type of class, just the fact that its a High School class. In California, every student under the age of 18 (I believe, it might be 16) has to attend High School, otherwise their parents can be thrown in jail.

Because the parents are being forced (under the threat of jail) to send their students to High School, they in turn will force their children to attend High School.

Perhaps your referring to, not the fact that he has to be in High School, but the fact that he has to take that class. Unlike college, in High School, the classes that a student is assigned to is quasi-random. By quasi-random I mean a student has no choice over which non linear classes he can take (basically, every class except for the Mathematics and English, or remedial classes). The poster is asking about cheating in History, which is not linear. In other words, he's stuck in that class until next year.

(Aside: I know all subjects are linear, and are related to one another, however an individual doesn't need to know anything about US History to understand History of the Roman Empire, for example. If more information is needed, I can clearify but it will be off topic.).

I hope you understand the meaning of force, and the context that I used it in.

Febod: In post number 23, you stated (and I'm going to assume its for me, if not then I apologize), "if you think cheating, no matter how innocent it may seem, is okay, then you need to re-evaluate the hierarchy of values you have chosen for yourself, or accepted blindly."

I think cheating, and lying is ok given the circumstances. We are dealing with a student, who is being forced to attend school (otherwise, the parents, who the individual values will go to jail). Now, thankfully most of the classes he (or she) has to take are good, moral, and gives him value. But now he has to take a class that gives him no value. He has no method to get out of the class, no way to drop the class, and failing the class will reduce the chance for him to go to college. Given those facts, I'd say cheat.

Edit: I hope this also answers your question as well Nate, on the benifits to cheating.

Edited December 10, 2006 by Time_Maker

[DavidOdden]

I didn't have any analogy in mind when I used the word "force", I used the term directly and honestly.

But you see, "force" when used directly and honectly, means that someone has a gun aimed at you saying "Do this or die", or knife to your throat, or is they don't actually have it to your throat it is still known that they will use violence against you if you don't comply. In this case, though, nobody is threating to cut or beat Kufa, so this really isn't a case of force. It's a voluntary class.

Perhaps your referring to, not the fact that he has to be in High School, but the fact that he has to take that class.

Well, so far, in no state is anyone threatened with violence if they do not take an AP class. At worst, the parents of the student will face violence if their child does not attend school, up to the relevant dropout age. You do not have to actually attend any classes. But still, even if you were threatened with violence if you don't take an AP class, that doesn't excuse being dishonest about your accomplishments.

In other words, nobody forces you to cheat, and cheating in this circumstance is utterly immoral.