Jean Piaget

[Gabo]

I have read about Piaget's work (not by himself, but by some other authors commenting on it), and so far it seems to me that many of his theories are consistent with Objectivist epistemology, such as:

- the stages of cognitive development in the child

- the belief that human beings make sense of the world by integrating what their senses perceive, and organizing their knowledge in a way that goes from the more concrete to the more abstract, and that all of this requires the work of an active mind

I was wondering if this is right, and even if Piaget's stages of development could serve as empirical proof for Ayn Rand's theory of concept-formation

[~Sophia~]

- the stages of cognitive development in the child

- the belief that human beings make sense of the world by integrating what their senses perceive, and organizing their knowledge in a way that goes from the more concrete to the more abstract, and that all of this requires the work of an active mind

Yes when it comes to those two things above. The results of Piaget's experiments on cognitive development confirm Rand's epistemological theories. He starts going wrong, when it comes to his conclusions, the further he gets from the perceptual level (I would still however look at the results of his experiments as he performed them quiet well). His theory of morality is mistaken (he was influenced by Kant).

[Gabo]

Yes when it comes to those two things above. The results of Piaget's experiments on cognitive development confirm Rand's epistemological theories. He starts going wrong, when it comes to his conclusions, the further he gets from the perceptual level (I would still however look at the results of his experiments as he performed them quiet well). His theory of morality is mistaken (he was influenced by Kant).

Thanks for your answer. Which of his conclusions do you think are mistaken? (as regards epistemology- I'm not particularly interested in his theory of morality)

Edited December 18, 2007 by Gabo

[~Sophia~]

Which of his conclusions do you think are mistaken?

It has been a while since I read him and I have not gone back after reading ITOE so my answer won't be very detailed.

I do think that Piaget's theory capture essential aspects of development. Generally, children do seem to move through the stages in the order Piaget identified. His stages have held up particularly well for the sensory-motor period and for scientific and mathematical reasoning in later stages. The same can not be said of his social thought, moral judgment (I already mentioned that one), and egocentrism. Although the sequence seems to be right and he himself recognized that children will master different tasks at different rates, Piaget implied more consistency than it has been found.

He also did not believe that children learn to think more logically as they master language. But language provide us with conceptual categories necessary for conceptual integration. Language alone may not be what takes a child from pre-logical to a logical stage but there is a positive correlation there. And once a person is capable of logical thought an improvement in language has shown to positively influence logical thinking.

Piaget did not believe it is productive to try to teach children right answers or procedures. Instead, he claimed, learning should come from experience, from opportunities to work out solutions. Although I do not think that children should be spoon-fed solutions passively without giving them the opportunity to work things out - concepts such as conservation can be taught . I think that a mix of both (direct teaching and self learning - of a certain ratio) can be beneficial to a child. I don't believe in Piaget's idea that slower rate of progress may lead to a greater progress ultimately.

Edited December 18, 2007 by ~Sophia~

[aequalsa]

It has been a while since I read him and I have not gone back after reading ITOE so my answer won't be very detailed.

I do think that Piaget's theory capture essential aspects of development. Generally, children do seem to move through the stages in the order Piaget identified. His stages have held up particularly well for the sensory-motor period and for scientific and mathematical reasoning in later stages. The same can not be said of his social thought, moral judgment (I already mentioned that one), and egocentrism. Although the sequence seems to be right and he himself recognized that children will master different tasks at different rates, Piaget implied more consistency than it has been found.

He also did not believe that children learn to think more logically as they master language. But language provide us with conceptual categories necessary for conceptual integration. Language alone may not be what takes a child from pre-logical to a logical stage but there is a positive correlation there. And once a person is capable of logical thought an improvement in language has shown to positively influence logical thinking.

Piaget did not believe it is productive to try to teach children right answers or procedures. Instead, he claimed, learning should come from experience, from opportunities to work out solutions. Although I do not think that children should be spoon-fed solutions passively without giving them the opportunity to work things out - concepts such as conservation can be taught . I think that a mix of both (direct teaching and self learning - of a certain ratio) can be beneficial to a child. I don't believe in Piaget's idea that slower rate of progress may lead to a greater progress ultimately.

Montessori's ideas are based on similar stages of development as well as a similar notion of concept development requiring prior experiences of the relevant concretes. The extensive success of Montessori schools might prove to be a more obvious and well documented proof of concept.

[~Sophia~]

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Edited December 18, 2007 by ~Sophia~

[Gabo]

Thanks again for your answers.

As regards the "egocentrism" of children during the pre-operational stage, I don't think he's too far off, since by that term he seems to mean that young children find it very hard to even contemplate that somebody else may have a different point of view, or that somebody else may not be able to fulfill everything he wants at the moment he does.

I have never heard of Montessori, I will try to find information about him.

[~Sophia~]

As regards the "egocentrism" of children during the pre-operational stage, I don't think he's too far off, since by that term he seems to mean that young children find it very hard to even contemplate that somebody else may have a different point of view, or that somebody else may not be able to fulfill everything he wants at the moment he does.

I don't disagree but egocentrism isn't restricted to young children. There are different forms of it observed at higher stages as well.

[Gabo]

I don't disagree but egocentrism isn't restricted to young children. There are different forms of it observed at higher stages as well.

Yes, of course, although there would be less justification for this phenomenom with older people than with children. Anyway I think he just described a general tendency.