Hairnet Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 What is the "Self"? "A man’s self is his mind—the faculty that perceives reality, forms judgments, chooses values." Ayn Rand What is strange is that the Sentence "A man's self is his mind" causes me to wonder what is possessing the self? I mean, when people refer to "your mind" or "my mind", it sounds like there is some entity which owns possesses the self/mind that can actively choose to renounce the self. Am I my mind or am I something that contains my mind? If it is the case that there is something other than the mind it could have interesting consequences for my understanding of Objectivism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiuol Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 What is the "Self"? Am I my mind or am I something that contains my mind? The best way I can explain it is that a "self" is a characteristic and it is entirely what your mind is. You are your self, you only possess a self in the sense that you may possess a tall stature. In other words, you are your mind. There is no dichotomy between body and mind, because as a person, you are an integrated whole. Your mind is what makes up what you are as a particular kind of entity, namely, a person. A mind is an essential characteristic of being a person, and a mind apart from a body simply is not possible. There is not a separate entity which is apart from your body, such as a soul, that contains your mind. In other languages, people don't say "their mind" or "my mind". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairnet Posted March 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 The best way I can explain it is that a "self" is a characteristic and it is entirely what your mind is. You are your self, you only possess a self in the sense that you may possess a tall stature. In other words, you are your mind. There is no dichotomy between body and mind, because as a person, you are an integrated whole. Your mind is what makes up what you are as a particular kind of entity, namely, a person. A mind is an essential characteristic of being a person, and a mind apart from a body simply is not possible. There is not a separate entity which is apart from your body, such as a soul, that contains your mind. In other languages, people don't say "their mind" or "my mind". Okay, so you are saying that all of this "my mind" stuff is just based on a our languages idiosyncrasies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiuol Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Okay, so you are saying that all of this "my mind" stuff is just based on a our languages idiosyncrasies? I'm only pointing out that saying "my mind" is not as clear cut as you were making it out to be. You could still say "my mind" because it is one of your characteristics as a person, just like when you say "my height is X". There is not a separate entity that contains height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A is A Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 What is the "Self"? "A man’s self is his mind—the faculty that perceives reality, forms judgments, chooses values." Ayn Rand What is strange is that the Sentence "A man's self is his mind" causes me to wonder what is possessing the self? I mean, when people refer to "your mind" or "my mind", it sounds like there is some entity which owns possesses the self/mind that can actively choose to renounce the self. Am I my mind or am I something that contains my mind? If it is the case that there is something other than the mind it could have interesting consequences for my understanding of Objectivism. What do you perceive when you look inward and when you use the terms: self, mind? Do you perceive it 'in' something? Do you experience them 'in' something? What attributes are you distinguishing them from? As poetically stated in Anthem: "It is my eyes which see, and the sight of my eyes grants beauty to the earth. It is my ears which hear, and the hearing of my ears gives its song to the world. It is my mind which thinks, and the judgment of my mind is the only searchlight that can find the truth." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairnet Posted March 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 I'm only pointing out that saying "my mind" is not as clear cut as you were making it out to be. You could still say "my mind" because it is one of your characteristics as a person, just like when you say "my height is X". There is not a separate entity that contains height. It is an interesting idea, it seems like you are saying any isolation we make with out language is artificial. Is that true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairnet Posted March 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 What do you perceive when you look inward and when you use the terms: self, mind? Do you perceive it 'in' something? Do you experience them 'in' something? What attributes are you distinguishing them from? As poetically stated in Anthem: I don't know what to say about what I experience when I use the terms "self" and "mind". I have an idea about what the mind is but I don't know what the self is. I am not exactly sure what your are asking though. Well, I experience consciousness.... but consciousness is the awareness of experience. Perhaps I am getting too wrapped up in the self awareness thing. It seems recursive though, as if there were many folds to awareness, awareness of awareness, then awareness of that. That is probably a bad idea, I just don't know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiuol Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Well, I experience consciousness.... but consciousness is the awareness of experience. Perhaps I am getting too wrapped up in the self awareness thing. It seems recursive though, as if there were many folds to awareness, awareness of awareness, then awareness of that. That is probably a bad idea, I just don't know why. The difference between a self and a mind is that a mind is more the faculty that chooses values, and a self is defined by the fact that one has chosen particular kinds of values. You aren't too wrapped up in self-awareness I think, but why would that make it seem like there are many folds of awareness? You are not distinguishing between two kinds of attributes. There is your mind and it directs your body. By saying "your," I only mean that you are a particular kind of entity which possesses a number of attributes. It is different than saying "your" house because having a house is not a characteristic of personhood. A house is a distinct entity from what you are and can be separated from you. The mind is inseparable from the body, and the body is inseparable from the mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairnet Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 The difference between a self and a mind is that a mind is more the faculty that chooses values, and a self is defined by the fact that one has chosen particular kinds of values. You aren't too wrapped up in self-awareness I think, but why would that make it seem like there are many folds of awareness? You are not distinguishing between two kinds of attributes. There is your mind and it directs your body. By saying "your," I only mean that you are a particular kind of entity which possesses a number of attributes. It is different than saying "your" house because having a house is not a characteristic of personhood. A house is a distinct entity from what you are and can be separated from you. The mind is inseparable from the body, and the body is inseparable from the mind. Woah! I had never thought about that. The distinction between two different kinds of "your". Many folds of awareness: I am aware that I am aware. I am also aware of the fact that I am aware that I am aware. Ad-Infinitum . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grames Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 It is an interesting idea, it seems like you are saying any isolation we make with out language is artificial. Is that true?Separating attributes from the entities that possess them is indeed "artificial". It is an epistemological separation, not a metaphysical separation. Assuming that attributes that can be selectively focused upon are metaphysically equivalent to entities leads to a variety of philosophical problems. THe Humean skepticism of perception for example. I quote from my Notes on David Kelley's "Evidence of the Senses" II. Entities and Attributes - Hume's Question We see a variety of qualities in a perceptual field and notice some of them go together. This lead's to Hume's question: "What binds the qualities together?" Nothing given perceptually binds them, so either: 1) We are guided by some past experience in what goes together. (Hume's answer) or 2) The perceiver imposes an organizing structure - a category - on the sensory manifold. (Kant's answer) The question is invalid because it has the matter backward and does so because it assumes and employs the thesis of sensationalism. But we begin with the awareness of the whole apart from its background, then we isolate individual qualities. To selectively focus on an object and wonder why the shape and color go together, or the color and texture, is a highly conceptual perspective presupposing a great deal of prior knowledge. That perceived qualities go together is given. The real question is how does a mind come to separate them? Many folds of awareness: I am aware that I am aware. I am also aware of the fact that I am aware that I am aware. Ad-Infinitum . Self-consciousness is recursive. There is nothing wrong with that and is no more an invocation of the idea of infinity than when it is used in computer algorithms executed on physical hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairnet Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Grames I really appreciated that post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonid Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 (edited) What is the "Self"? "A man’s self is his mind—the faculty that perceives reality, forms judgments, chooses values." Ayn Rand What is strange is that the Sentence "A man's self is his mind" causes me to wonder what is possessing the self? I mean, when people refer to "your mind" or "my mind", it sounds like there is some entity which owns possesses the self/mind that can actively choose to renounce the self. Am I my mind or am I something that contains my mind? If it is the case that there is something other than the mind it could have interesting consequences for my understanding of Objectivism. "True man emerges when the painter of bull and even of its hunter turns to concerning himself with the unpaintable image of his own conduct and the state of his self. Over the distance of this wondering, searching, and comparing perception there is constituted the new entity, "I" "Transition", The Phenomenon of Life by Hans Jonas, pg 185. For Rand there is no such a thing as mind-body dichotomy. The phenomenon of self-consciousness, that is-awareness of the fact that one is a conscious being pertains to human being, who is inseparable unit of mind and body. The essence of self-consciousness is in the fact that one possesses oneself Edited March 25, 2010 by Leonid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grames Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Grames I really appreciated that post. Thanks. Also, recursion is valid in the analog realm too. Two facing mirrors don't blow up the universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasmatic Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Thanks. Also, recursion is valid in the analog realm too. Two facing mirrors don't blow up the universe. D Hoffstadter likes that analogy too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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