Coping with Death

[BNeptune]

Does anyone know where I can find objectivist material that talks about dealing ith the death of a loved one, or anything objectivist-related dealing with our own mortality?

[Toolboxnj]

There was a long thread posted on this topic in the last year or so. I'd use the search function.

[IAmMetaphysical]

Try this clip from "Ayn Rand: a sense of life"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsIvCyNkbyc

[Bold Standard]

Try this clip from "Ayn Rand: a sense of life"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsIvCyNkbyc

Awesome, I tried to look for that same clip when I saw this thread yesterday, but didn't see it. That's one of my favorite parts of the documentary.

Does anyone have any speculations about who the Greek philosopher is that she was quoting? It's probably not going to be an exact quote of the translations that we have, since she probably read it in Russian (she said that she was 16). Based on my knowledge of Ancient Greek philosophers (which is still pretty limited), I think Epicurus is a good bet. He had a lot of similar, interesting things to say about death.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Bold Standard

[JMeganSnow]

Dealing with what aspect of it? In my experience, there are only two psychological issues that arise concerning death that need any form of dealing: fear of death and the idea that death makes life pointless.

Fear of death is actually easier to deal with, although at the time it may seem more debilitating. I started a thread here on the subject that I think yielded some interesting insights.

The idea that death makes life pointless, however, is the really debilitating and troublesome psychological issue. The solution, actually, is presented quite simply by Terry Pratchett in his book Small Gods. Paraphrasing:

"What does it matter? In a hundred years you'll all be dead and no one will know!"

"Yes. But here and now, we are alive."

It's a difficult notion to comprehend because it requires you to sit down and really think hard about the roots of concepts like "purpose" and "meaning", but it's fairly rewarding because when you do, you find you stop worrying about something that utterly paralyzes a great many people with irrational terror: so much so that they construct entire belief systems just to avoid the necessity of dealing with it.

[KendallJ]

There is another clip from SOL, one of hte Donahue interviews, where he asks her if life is worth living now that her husband is dead. I don't remember the details tho, so someone will have to fill it in for me.

[KendallJ]

Found it...

Donahue: Does this emotional impact of this kind [the pain of Frank's loss]of pain alter in any way your philosophy?

Ayn Rand: No... It only altered my position with regard to the world... which is that... I lost my top value. I'm not too interested in anything else. But I'll survive because I do love the world in general, and I do love ideas, and I do love man. But my personal... is a loss now.

Donahue: Isn't there a temptation for you, and I don't mean to suggest that you're not sincere in your writings, to hope for a reunion with the person that you loved, to look beyond the...

Ayn Rand: I've asked myself just that, seriously. And I thought that if I really believed it for five minutes, I'd commit suicide immeidately, and I know that [unintelligible]

Donahue: in other words to get to him...

Ayn Rand: ...to get to him, of course... I'll tell you more. I ask myself how would I feel if he's on trial before God or St. Peter, and I'm not with him

Donahue: to testify or to help him out.

Ayn Rand: exactly... My first desire, exactly, would be to run to help him, and tell how good he was.

There is more before and after that discusses her response to his death, and some of her thoughts on falling in love with a sense of life of someone else.

[Bold Standard]

Dealing with what aspect of it? In my experience, there are only two psychological issues that arise concerning death that need any form of dealing: fear of death and the idea that death makes life pointless.

Don't you think that losing someone close to you creates psychological issues that need to be dealt with, besides these two?

It seems to me that the death of a human being you love is different from the loss of other high values (for instance, losing your job), and requires special coping skills. Not just after the death, but also, if there is a terminal illness, the whole period after you learn that the person is sick and probably going to die. I don't think that it's fear or apathy driving the emotional state of someone losing or who has lost a loved one.

[JMeganSnow]

I don't know, because this has never happened to me and I don't even know anyone that I feel that strongly about. From personal experience, the death of a significant other usually causes a.) development of a fear of death or b.) wondering whether life has any purpose at all, but this is mostly experience with people in my family, and people in my family tend to maintain a degree of emotional distance even from spouses simply out of politeness. If you are feeling broken-down, you certainly don't talk about it.

The only other psychological symptom I've seen is wanting to avoid entering into another similar relationship for at least some length of time, which makes sense to me. I don't think I could comprehend being so wrapped up in another person that you wouldn't want to live without them, but I'm used to living my life in a permanent state of "eventually, things will get better" and "this, too, shall pass", so maybe I'm just better-armed against the inevitable.

[JMeganSnow]

Or, were you just talking about grief? You don't deal with grief: that would be tantamount to trying to wish it out of existence. If you do love someone (or even just like them), you ought to grieve them. It is not rational to try to avoid experiencing emotions. What is rational or irrational, good or bad, is what you do about them when you experience them.