Large Hadron Collider

[LiberTodd]

Very interesting project underway under Swedish soil right now.

http://lhc-operation.web.cern.ch/lhc-operation/Default.htm

Apparently this enormous particle collider is expected to produce an example of the Higgs Boson "God Particle," a theoretical particle which is the origin of all other particles in the universe. Like a stem cell, basically. Scientists believe that if they have this particle they can shed a whole lot of light on the question of where the universe came from. Other people think it will create a miniature black hole that destroys the world, but that seems unrealistic. The machine will be activated in May 2008, so cross your fingers and let the debates begin .

[Mammon]

I always wondered what would happen if they didn't actually create the particle...

[Qwertz]

LHC will not be capable of producing collisions even approaching the energies of those that occur naturally from upper-atmosphere gamma ray bombardment, so the "miniature black hole" doomsday scenario is rather a bit less probable than the events depicted in the final season of Lexx.

I had a professor (who is now working on LHC's detectors) who would fly into a spitting rage whenever someone called the Higgs boson "the God particle." He had vicious things to say about people who used the term. He was a major pessimist, too. The most important thing we were expected to learn from him was that "everyone lies, everyone cheats, and everyone steals." He was very smart, but very bitter. But he was right that "God particle" really is a major misnomer. There's nothing supernatural about the particle, and its "Godlike" action (the Higgs mechanism, by which vector bosons acquire mass) is already soundly proven. It's just the mediator particle that hasn't been detected yet.

~Q

[Robert J. Kolker]

I always wondered what would happen if they didn't actually create the particle...

The question of why other particles have the mass they have will remain open

Bob Kolker

[LiberTodd]

LHC will not be capable of producing collisions even approaching the energies of those that occur naturally from upper-atmosphere gamma ray bombardment, so the "miniature black hole" doomsday scenario is rather a bit less probable than the events depicted in the final season of Lexx

It's too bad most people don't know this, as I've heard lots of people saying they would blow it up if they had the chance.

[Qwertz]

Some loon filed a lawsuit.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/28/us-laws...-machine-higgs/

I'll pull the complaint off PACER on Monday. I won't be able to post it (license agreement!), but I will summarize it. It will be interesting to see what the basis for subject matter jurisdiction is. If I had to guess, I'd say they're probably naming the US government as a defendant, since NSF and DOE contribute to LHC/CERN. US government as defendant would give federal court jurisdiction. Also, from the article, it looks like the basis for suit is that an adequate environmental impact study has not been properly conducted, in which case some federal environmental regulation or another would give jurisdiction. If that is so, Lujan v. Defenders of Wildlife, 504 U.S. 555 (1992), will likely be analogous and plaintiff will lack standing.

More on this after the weekend.

~Q

[punk]

He was very smart, but very bitter. But he was right that "God particle" really is a major misnomer. There's nothing supernatural about the particle, and its "Godlike" action (the Higgs mechanism, by which vector bosons acquire mass) is already soundly proven. It's just the mediator particle that hasn't been detected yet.

"Just a mediator particle" is a little bit of understatement.

The Higgs is needed to break the symmetry in the Weak interaction.

This broken symmetry is actually a big deal.

"God particle" is hyperbole, but it isn't "just a mediator particle" in the scope of the overall theory.

[Mammon]

Of course everyone is going to die when they turn this on. Just look at it!... It's big.... and sciency! It will probably open a hole to the Chaos dimension!!!

You know it's going to happen!

[LiberTodd]

Of course everyone is going to die when they turn this on. Just look at it!... It's big.... and sciency! It will probably open a hole to the Chaos dimension!!!

You know it's going to happen!

LHC is this decade's Y2K. Then next decade we'll have the "OOH SCARY ANCIENT MAYAN PROPHECY!!!" Seems like the human race experiences mass mental retardation once every 3-10 years.

[D'kian]

LHC is this decade's Y2K. Then next decade we'll have the "OOH SCARY ANCIENT MAYAN PROPHECY!!!" Seems like the human race experiences mass mental retardation once every 3-10 years.

I wish! More like every year, or every month, if not more often than that. Just wait for an eclipse.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

LHC is this decade's Y2K. Then next decade we'll have the "OOH SCARY ANCIENT MAYAN PROPHECY!!!" Seems like the human race experiences mass mental retardation once every 3-10 years.

Actually at least the Y2K issue at least had some basis in reality. I know software companies spent a lot of time ensuring there would be no danger; it was worth taking the precautions. I do know of one person whose pager was goobered up for a few days by it.

The Mayan prophecy thing is pure mysticism; not worth taking precautions.

[Qwertz]

I got my hands on the complaint and accompanying affidavits and boy, howdy, they are a hoot!

As suspected, plaintiffs are attempting to assert standing on the basis of certain provisions in US environmental laws requiring federal agencies to conduct certain environmental impact studies before undertaking certain projects. Plaintiffs are seeking a TRO, preliminary injunction, and permanent injunction pending compliance with the environmental impact study requirements. Plaintiffs want the injunction to remain in effect at least 6 months after publication of the study, to give "the public" appropriate time to read, analyze, and object to the findings. Plaintiffs will certainly and absolutely fail in their application, because there is controlling Supreme Court precedent requiring more than a theoretical or conjectural injury for standing.

It is quite funny, though. Here are some choice exerpts:

Black Holes would be produced at CERN if String Theory, or any of the multiple theories that consider gravity to grow in force at small scales, is certain (super gravity, super-symmetry, etc.). According to Scientific American's polls, 9 out of 10 physicists believe that Sring Theory is certain. Thus, we can assign a 90% chance to the possible creation of black holes by the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) at a rate of 1 per second.

Emphasis in original.

In ethical, moral and hence legal terms (as I believe The Law is the practical expression of human ethics), it is self-evident that even a reduced possibility, as those initially considered by CERN, of a 1-10% chances [sic.] of extinguishing the Earth, would create a "theoretical potential" 6 billion x 1-10% = 60-600 million potential legal holocaust victims, still the biggest genocide in the history of mankind. It would be also the biggest environmental crime of history, far more harmful than Global Warming, as it could mean the destruction of all life forms on this planet.

Emphasis in original.

Yet since the production of Dark Matter is neither necessary for the advancement of science, nor safe to mankind, but a potential environmental crime of global proportions, the LHC should be forbidden to operate - as we close for security reasons Cernobyl-like factories and forbid the reproduction of Ebola virus in an open environment, even if some specialized virologists would like to study it for research purposes.

Emphasis, believe it or not, in original.

Watch the wanton redefinition of concepts by which the author attempts to manipulate the court:

[Allowing LHC to go into operation] has to be judged at best as[ a]n act of criminal negligence and irresponsibility, known to its perpetrators, which can harm billions of human being [sic.]; and at worst as[ a] potential terrorist act (since terrorism is defined as any concealed event, plotted by a group of people that can harm an enormous number of human beings).

Italics in original; bold is mine.

Later on...

It is thus not strange that 'fundamentalist' scientists behave like fundamentalist 'religious people'. Both groups seem to believe in their dogmas with such strength that they justify from their points of view acts of collective murder all over the world, to prove such religious and political views.

There's more. There are a total of 7 affidavits, most from "risk assessment professionals," in support of the application for TRO and preliminary injunction.

One of the affidavits, by plaintiff Walter L. Wagner, copies large chunks from the Wikipedia article on the LHC.

Talk about things not to do!

If I find more gems, I will share them.

~Q

[Mammon]

You know, I guess we just have to wait and see! I'm sure it's not going to do anything harmful, but I like to joke around about it because it's funny. But that guys complaints sound like the rantings of a teenager science ficition writer with an affinity for watching conspiracy theory videos on Youtube.

[SkyTrooper]

Black Holes would be produced at CERN if String Theory, or any of the multiple theories that consider gravity to grow in force at small scales, is certain (super gravity, super-symmetry, etc.). According to Scientific American's polls, 9 out of 10 physicists believe that Sring Theory is certain. Thus, we can assign a 90% chance to the possible creation of black holes by the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) at a rate of 1 per second.

Well it's a good thing that String Theory is complete BS then. I did think the text I got from my buddy today was amusing though, which was the first I heard of this: "There is a physics experiment starting in switzerland this summer which could destroy the planet so we should speed up our chess game just in case." (we're playing a correspondence game)

[D'kian]

It is quite funny, though. Here are some choice exerpts:

Sometimes it feels as though they're yelling "Witches! Burn them!"

[Qwertz]

Yes, a lot of it has that feel to it. I can find it funny only because I know that it will get royally shredded by the judge at the TRO conference next week.

Also, Sancho and Wagner are pro se. No sane lawyer bent on keeping his license would waste the court's time with this.

~Q

[LiberTodd]

From the Encyclopedia Dramatica article on it:

How You Can Help

So, there is a relatively low probability that the Large Hadron Collider will destroy our planet, much less the entire universe. Fiddlesticks and fooey! But, you can help! By spreading word about the Large Hadron Collider, and making a big fucking deal of it, and preaching doom and gloom, you can help destroy the world economy! Convince stupid people to take on huge amounts of loan debt, and waste the fuck out of it by May 2008.

Here are some ways to suggest that people spend their fleeting fortune:

* Never been to Disney? Spend 5 months there!

* Never fucked a six year old boy? Look out, Thailand!

* Lifelong virgin? Buy a Real Doll. Hell, buy a HAREM of Real Dolls.

* Lifelong virgin, but think Real Dolls are creepy? Buy every Dungeons & Dragons supplement ever!

* Big, fat asshole? Order 20 pizzas every night, and enjoy them while watching Food Network on your wall of 4x4 47-inch LCD TVs!

* Care about your immortal soul? Give all your borrowed money to me, and I'll put in a good word with L. Ron Hubbard/Jesus/Buddha/Muhammed/Marshal Applewhite for you.

Bad credit or no credit? You can still enlist even the lowliest of cretins to hasten the end of human civilization:

* Get AIDS, rape everything.

* Blow up gas stations.

* Shit right in the middle of the goddamned sidewalk.

* Kill celebrities.

* Burn crops.

* Kill a panda to make a fursuit.

* Vote for Ron Paul.

[Maximus]

I say just go down and flip the on switch.

[agrippa1]

There once was a wily Helvetian

Who worked underground in secretion

He got us in a pickle

When he made God's par-tickle

'Cause it prompted a global deletion.

[ruveyn ben yosef]

Very interesting project underway under Swedish soil right now.

http://lhc-operation.web.cern.ch/lhc-operation/Default.htm

Apparently this enormous particle collider is expected to produce an example of the Higgs Boson "God Particle," a theoretical particle which is the origin of all other particles in the universe. Like a stem cell, basically. Scientists believe that if they have this particle they can shed a whole lot of light on the question of where the universe came from. Other people think it will create a miniature black hole that destroys the world, but that seems unrealistic. The machine will be activated in May 2008, so cross your fingers and let the debates begin .

I am slightly annoyed with Leon Lederman for giving the Higgs Boson the name "God Particle". This is extremely misleading. Here is a snippet from the wikipedia article on the Higgs:

Main article: Higgs boson in fiction

Mentions of the Higgs boson (sometimes referred to in popular articles as the 'God particle', after the not-all-serious title of Nobel laureate Leon Lederman's book The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What Is the Question?), occur in some works of fiction. These references mostly imbue it with fantastic properties, and of the actual theory of the particle only its unknown mass is capitalized upon.

The Higgs Bson does not -create- the other particles. The Higgs imparts mas to other particles (including zero rest mass in the case of photons for example), by interacting with them. If the Higgs is found, it will explain why or imply the rest mass of the other particles required in the Standard Model.

I am all for popularizing some of the more esoteric aspects of physics, but there is a danger that some of the metaphors and analogies used will produce mistaken notions. The Standard Model has absolutely -nothing- to do with God or any other supernatural entity.

ruveyn

[The Wrath]

This is funny...I just finished Stephen Hawkings' Universe in a Nutshell where he mentions the LEC at the end. About 2 minutes ago, I looked it up on Wikipedia to find out when it opens and saw that it opens this month. I came on here to start a thread about it...and the first thread I see is one that was already made.

[Pianoman83]

This may be a bit off topic but when I first read the title of the thread, I thought it said, "Large Hardon Collider"

[pectoh]

well. a black hole eh?will that happen before or after the easter bunny crawls out of the lhc?funny how so many people can jump on the black hole band wagon( i was on)when they are not yet factual entities. my daughter was the straw that convinced me that all will be fine. there has not been a black hole sigthed since....hmm, cant seem to recall. there is a clear present danger. in my under achieving under educated opinion, i think the biggest likely threat is an EMP or several variable ray/burst emmisions result from splitting atoms, is it not a similar enough action to consider?

Edited September 9, 2008 by pectoh

[LiberTodd]

What's really funny to me is how the people who built LHC have devoted their lives to the understanding of quantum and particle physics, and yet every dumb-ass with a connection to the internet thinks he can override all those years of accredited research and knowledge on the grounds of pure speculation.

Seriously, start an LHC thread anywhere on the internet and be amused by all the nay-saying that pours in from soccer moms and 15 year-olds. It's great.

[RationalBiker]

Now the doomsayer's are threatening members of the project.