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Trebor

6 Year Old Girl Groped By TSA

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OMG That is AWFUL! This is an arch example of how America is molding it's own people into total passivity, willing to selflessly obey anythinhg.. even the violation of your own children. Think of this poor kid and the psychological damage she's just gone through.

This is truely sickening.

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This is an arch example of how America is molding it's own people into total passivity, willing to selflessly obey anythinhg.. even the violation of your own children.

I doubt the TSA goons are really thinking that far ahead and more likely they're just acting on short-sighted depravity like any petty bureacrat.

Edited by Mister A

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I doubt the TSA goons are really thinking that far ahead and more likely they're just acting on short-sighted depravity like any anonymous bureacrat.

Yes that is true. I don't think they are concious of what they do at all. The passivity is already there to work with anyway.

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I think that it would be possible to briefly frisk the child without freaking her out so much. The look on her face made me so sad/angry.

I understand that it's feasible for a parent to try to hide drugs on their child, so if the TSA agent has to check her, she could at least be friendly and talk to the kid.

And then when she's done she just walks away WTF. No wonder the girl was so scared.

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I understand that it's feasible for a parent to try to hide drugs on their child, so if the TSA agent has to check her, she could at least be friendly and talk to the kid.

Actually, TSA is not in the business of looking for drugs...their purpose is to look for weapons and/or explosives.

It's important that you understand, I'm not defending TSA in general, and certainly not this incident in particular, but....

IF the government allows someone or something to slip through security and another plane blows up or crashes into a building, the public cries out that the government is not doing enough to protect it's citizens and they want heads to roll. IF nothing happens, the public cries out that little six year old girls are being "groped" by TSA agents and they want heads to roll, but it is less likely that they will be incensed IF they feel safer by the procedures the government has in place. I know some that some people will say, it's part of air travel, if you don't want to be searched, don't fly. As wrong as that is, there are many people (in my opinion based on working in an airport and in law enforcement) who will say that.

in the end, many, MANY people simple want to feel safe, and having some procedures in place (regardless of the actual logic involved in those procedures) makes them fell safe. As such, this little girl pays the price for such insecurity.

I've participated on this board for a long time. I'm not a flash in the pan guest. But honestly, I bare my soul to you when I say I'm in somewhat of an crisis about being optimistic. I asked this question in another thread, as yet unanswered, WHERE are all the rational people? If I'm to maintain a benevolent universe premise, what evidence of man and our current state of politics should I be looking for? I ask this earnestly and with no intent to demean the philosophy of Objectivism or Ayn Rand.

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IF the government allows someone or something to slip through security and another plane blows up or crashes into a building, the public cries out that the government is not doing enough to protect it's citizens and they want heads to roll. IF nothing happens, the public cries out that little six year old girls are being "groped" by TSA agents and they want heads to roll, but it is less likely that they will be incensed IF they feel safer by the procedures the government has in place. I know some that some people will say, it's part of air travel, if you don't want to be searched, don't fly. As wrong as that is, there are many people (in my opinion based on working in an airport and in law enforcement) who will say that.

in the end, many, MANY people simple want to feel safe, and having some procedures in place (regardless of the actual logic involved in those procedures) makes them fell safe. As such, this little girl pays the price for such insecurity.

I agree with what you say, that the TSA agents, the government, is in a Catch-22 situation (of its own making, of "our" own making, by taking a defensive position rather than a truly offensive position and aggressively taking on the threat in such a manner as Dr. Peikoff advocated years ago: "End States That Sponsor Terrorism."): If there's another attack on another plane, they'll be blamed for not having done enough, and if there's not, then people will complain about the abuses such as what this mother and her daughter had to go though. (In logic, given the potential to hide things in body cavities, at some point we will perhaps learn of another six year old girl or boy being fully strip-searched, not merely being patted down with the TSA agent's backside of her hand on "private parts," but body cavities probed as well.)

In the context of our having to live and adjust to a state of siege ("The Perils of a Siege Mentality" by Ed Cline), even those of us who would prefer that we actually end states that sponsor terrorism, then we will have to suffer the abuse until and unless there's the political-moral will to actually take offensive action against our enemies. If "we" can't "get it" yet, then we will have to learn the hard way.

I've participated on this board for a long time. I'm not a flash in the pan guest. But honestly, I bare my soul to you when I say I'm in somewhat of an crisis about being optimistic. I asked this question in another thread, as yet unanswered, WHERE are all the rational people? If I'm to maintain a benevolent universe premise, what evidence of man and our current state of politics should I be looking for? I ask this earnestly and with no intent to demean the philosophy of Objectivism or Ayn Rand.

Does being optimistic equate to having a benevolent universe premise or sense of life? I certainly appreciate and understand the feeling of a lack of optimism with respect to this country's future, but that is not necessarily indicative of a malevolent sense of life (or malevolent universe premise), of the sense or view that the future has to be of necessity (metaphysically) one of step-by-step decline into totalitarianism, with all that will mean.

Years ago I watched the movie, "Battle of the Bulge." That movie (without any assumption as to historical accuracy) concretized, for me, the idea that if one knows and understands what makes something tick, then one can then identify what can be done to stop it. Without that knowledge one is defenseless against what seems to be overwhelming odds. What did it take to stop the armada of German tanks? Destroy the gasoline depot they were in route to. Without the fuel, those ominous tanks became useless piles of metal.

What we are all watching play out in the world is a philosophical drama. Unlike those German tanks, identifying the nature of the threat and what to do about it is much more abstract, less readily apparent. Seeing that young girl have to endure that search (or seeing young Elian Gonzales taken by force and banished to grow up in communist Cuba) is important. It shows us the real consequences of something gone wrong and hopefully gets people to question what we are doing, and why, and what would be the right thing to do instead, and why. Hold the wrong philosophical fundamentals and all the reason and logic in the world applied on the basis of those ideas, unchallenged and unquestioned, will lead to disaster. Philosophical ideas are the hardest to change. In answer to your question, "WHERE are all the rational people?", those rational people you are looking for are those who are working to inject Objectivism into our culture, yourself included.

Perhaps helpful, here's a recent "Daily Dose of Reason" post by Dr. Hurd (another rational person): "Everything's Hopeless--So What Should I Do?."

Edited by Trebor

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I understand that it's feasible for a parent to try to hide drugs on their child, so if the TSA agent has to check her, she could at least be friendly and talk to the kid.

She did talk her through what she was doing, I can hear her. She was saying what she was doing when moving her searching hands on the little girl.

If she was so scared, I wonder just how much the parents explained the what and why of the screening/search before/after the searching/search?

I wonder how many Muslims were waved through while they were molesting the little girl?

Molesting? How so?

I see what was happening as "searching" not "molesting".

Other meanings of the word "molesting", one could argue, do not at all adequately describe what was going on, "groping" the same thing - and that "searching" describes it most properly.

Perhaps helpful, here's a recent "Daily Dose of Reason" post by Dr. Hurd (another rational person): "Everything's Hopeless--So What Should I Do?."

One paragraph in that link, this one:

All of this points to the fact that human beings have free will. They can choose what to do, who to listen to, which battles to fight and which battles to leave to others. The thing about free will is that it's always subject to change. Human beings (as a group) can evade important issues for decades or centuries -- and then reverse course when they've had enough, just as individuals sometimes do in their own personal lives. They can also get lazy, sloppy and corrupt about principles, as most Americans have. There's no way of predicting when the behavior of large numbers of people will change, or whether it will happen. But the possibility always remains.

Reminds me of a first line from an Emily Dickinson poem "dwell in Possibility" (poem #657 Johnson numbering).

Today and in the future, reform need not take centuries. With so many people living in advanced societies with so much to lose, it remains possible that mass numbers will turn against the form of government we have come to adopt, once they're more clear that government has been the problem, not the solution. I cannot say it WILL change any time; but it can change any time. If it doesn't, people are going to lose everything they have. A loss on that scale has never occurred in human history. Information and ideas spread more quickly than ever before. Perhaps the same will happen for economic and personal liberty, once its time arrives again -- as it will.
Edited by intellectualammo

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I asked this question in another thread, as yet unanswered, WHERE are all the rational people? If I'm to maintain a benevolent universe premise, what evidence of man and our current state of politics should I be looking for? I ask this earnestly and with no intent to demean the philosophy of Objectivism or Ayn Rand.

From my understanding, the benevolent universe premise is a metaphysical expression, i.e. there are no forces that countermand the supremacy of rationality for successfully attaining happiness as well as other goals, and more importantly, in dealing with objective reality. It has nothing to do with people; the malevolence can only be thus an object for choice, therefore, a human quality (I mean that in the sense of attribute, however no better word comes to mind). But that would not be consistent with the malevolent universe premise, that there would be other forces, specifically outside human reach that would taunt his efforts.

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Trebor,

Thanks for your well thought out response and links. I'm taking the time really consider these things to try get my head around where I'm at on all this. At the moment a massive headache is not helping.

Thanks to you also Xall.

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Also, to echo intellectualammo's post, I think it is a bit loaded to say that TSA was "groping" or "molesting" the girl. Nothing I saw about the conduct in that video suggested anything other than a standard TSA pat down and I see them literally almost every day.

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Thanks for your well thought out response and links. I'm taking the time really consider these things to try get my head around where I'm at on all this. At the moment a massive headache is not helping.

You are welcome. Bad headaches really suck, but how wonderful it is when they go away. Makes one appreciate not having a headache at least.

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Molesting? How so?

I see what was happening as "searching" not "molesting".

Other meanings of the word "molesting", one could argue, do not at all adequately describe what was going on, "groping" the same thing - and that "searching" describes it most properly.

The little girl was in distress. She was obviously NOT a freaking terrorist. There was no need to pull a child this young out for a random pat-down. TSA should be abolished and the airlines themselves should handle their own security. I'd rather drive all the way across the country than have some perv look at me with a naked machine or touch my personals.

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She was obviously NOT a freaking terrorist. There was no need to pull a child this young out for a random pat-down.

They don't pat down the girl because they think she's the terrorist, they pat down the girl because they think it is possible for the adults to use her to bring weapons on board the plane, ceramic weapons that would be undetectable by the metal detector. I'm not saying I agree, I'm just explaining what they are thinking.

It would be interesting to see what free market solution would be in place should the government exit the airline industry altogether. Does anyone think that airlines would not require some form of consent to search as a condition to use their property for air travel?

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It would be interesting to see what free market solution would be in place should the government exit the airline industry altogether. Does anyone think that airlines would not require some form of consent to search as a condition to use their property for air travel?

A free market solution... Let me see, I guess some airlines just wouldn't require any if they so choose, but do you think people would board that plane or go with that airlines, when there is another one with a metal detector, X-Ray screening of belongings, patting down before flight? I guess if more people go to the flights that have such a check point, then the ones that don't would see that it is hurting their business not to have such measures in place. Maybe the consent to be searched would be covered in the inital ticket purchase, or something like that, and any specification with what you can board with and so forth given then as well, or if it's changed any or whatever a way for one to find out beforehand, etc.

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They don't pat down the girl because they think she's the terrorist, they pat down the girl because they think it is possible for the adults to use her to bring weapons on board the plane, ceramic weapons that would be undetectable by the metal detector. I'm not saying I agree, I'm just explaining what they are thinking.

I know what they are thinking, but they need to be patting down Mooslim kids instead of blonde white girl. A little profiling goes a long way - reference El Al.

It would be interesting to see what free market solution would be in place should the government exit the airline industry altogether. Does anyone think that airlines would not require some form of consent to search as a condition to use their property for air travel?

Whatever method they would employ, it would not be an increasingly tyrannical government imposing the searches.

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Up until the "naked machine"/sexual assault parameters came on-line, the procedures were generally just an inconvenience rather than an intrusion. (IMO)

Comparing a TSA pat down to a sexual assault really trivializes a real sexual assault.

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