Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum
Andromeda

Would Like Some Advice With Women...

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Hello,

this is my first post and I would really want some advice.

Here's an explanation of my situation:

I'm a funny, good looking guy. I am handsome and I know it. I'm not particularly tall but I'm not small either (5'10'', 155 pounds).

I've been told I'm kind of skinny. I talk really fast and I'm quite good in some sports (no team sports).

I've been told I'm very intelligent and I do think I am (as relative as this might be).

I mostly hang out with girls. This is partly due to this:

1) I've just finished my degree as a social worker. For those who don't know, it's mostly girls.

Well, I seem to always end up being friends with girls and it really pisses me off. I'm probably what you define here as an AFC or something.

I do write poetry to girls or drawings or calligraphy. I've always been an artist. But it doesn't really work to tell you the truth. Well, I can use certain turn of phrase which allows me to get kissed every once in a while but no sex.

The thing is, I would like to get laid more. But I'm really choked with a very present conscience. I've got trouble doing what I consider morally wrong.

Is playing a girl into having sex with you wrong? I don't know...

I do envy and am jealous of all those football players or rock band singers who pretty much bang whatever they like.

So here's my sorry situation. Most of my friends are girls. They hug me quite a bit and call me affectionate names and all that. Older women believe I'm quite a catch for being a gentleman and all that ****, but I don't really care.

Somehow I'm frightened by beautiful women. Everytime I'm about to approach them, I stop, unless I'm piss drunk In which case I suprisingly do okay with nailing women. When I'm about to walk up to them I think "No way in hell I can succeed with her, she could get anyone, why me?"

Now I've studied psychology far and wide, so I know It's all a question of self-confidence, self-esteem... But no matter how much I read, it doesn't change anything! I'm still cursed by doubts and fears even though I pretty much succeed in most fields of my life (apart than women).

Sometimes I think I'd rather but one of those real guys and be a mechanic or a smith of some shyt like that. But I'm just a depressed artist, a talented one, but a lonely one too.

I do get girls, only, they're not the one I like. I wouldn't sleep with them even with a gun to my head (they're usually below average). It's strange but considering my looks, I could pretty much get anyone I would want. So I'm kind of confused here.

Well, thank you for reading. Hopefully someone will slap some truth into me because I've been clueless about this for 6 years now and now is the time or never to change. I know I won't be young forever and will die someday; only, this goes to prove that human beings are not rationnal by a long shot, at least I'm not.

Yours,

From what you've read, am I an AFC?

Andromeda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Um, what is an AFC? And how are you expecting us to assist you if you aren't rational? (Or, as you suppose, rationality is impossible. :P) Without the ability to present our reasoning, we cannot convince you that our thoughts are accurate. Without the ability to apply the results of a chain of reasoning to life, i.e. work backwards from principles to concretes, nothing we say could be of any use to you, anyway.

What you really need to do is to introspect to determine the cause of your doubts and fears regarding members of the opposite sex that you find attractive. It also sounds like you would benefit from defining explicitly what you find attractive and why.

One also does not "play" women (ugh, what a term) to get sex. One romances women in order to get WOMEN. Sex is a seriously enjoyable part of the equation. However, it is not the goal of a romantic relationship, it is PART of the romantic relationship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your reply.

Okay, well, an AFC stands for something I won't put here as it would probably end up being censored. It probably means being insecure, not confident if you prefer.

As far as women not being played into having sex, I beg to differ. They can be played (or manipulated if you prefer) into having sex or seduced into sex. Some people I know seduce women into sex every single night, clubbing.

As for the first part of your post, I didn't undestand it. Seemed needlessly complicated.

Well, I guess it's all up to me to figure this one out. I realise that reading books and receiving advices can only get you so far.

Thanks for the input though.

Etienne

Edited to remove unnecessary quoting by moderator TomL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sometimes I think I'd rather but one of those real guys and be a mechanic or a smith of some shyt like that. But I'm just a depressed artist, a talented one, but a lonely one too.

I know It's all a question of self-confidence, self-esteem... But no matter how much I read, it doesn't change anything! I'm still cursed by doubts and fears even though I pretty much succeed in most fields of my life (apart than women).

You say you're a social worker by trade but you're really an artist. THAT'S why you have no self-esteem; you're not feeling fulfilled. Reading doesn't give you self-esteem; achieving your goals does.

Being good-looking isn't really that important to women - we want someone we can respect and look up to. Women don't want to have sex out of pity with some guy who reminds them of their pathetic kid brother. We want our own personal hero.

But let's back up a bit - why are you asking HERE? Are you looking for a romantic relationship? Re-read your post - it doesn't sound like it. You say you wish you were a hedonist rock star or something and you want to get "laid." As you've found, the only girls who will go for that are girls who have even lower self-esteem than you do. Go get yourself a hooker if that's what you want.

If, however, you want an Objectivist woman, you have to BE an Objectivist hero. If you want to be an Objectivist, you have to start by addressing your self-esteem issues.

edited for typo

Edited by Pony Girl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AFC = Average Frustrated Chump. i.e. "unlucky" with the ladies.

I'm a funny, good looking guy.
This is a good start.

I am handsome and I know it.

Even better!

I'm not particularly tall but I'm not small either (5'10'', 155 pounds).
Or to put it another way: you're average. But you don't really care about that... do you?

I've been told I'm kind of skinny.

WRONG. Don't care what other people tell you. Count ONLY on your own judgement.

(Incidently, there's nothing wrong with skinny. But don't take my word for it.)

I've been told I'm very intelligent and I do think I am
If nobody told you that you were intelligent, would you still think that you are?

I do write poetry to girls or drawings or calligraphy. I've always been an artist. But it doesn't really work to tell you the truth. Well, I can use certain turn of phrase which allows me to get kissed every once in a while but no sex.

Ask yourself this: do you really want it to work? If you could get a woman to have sex with you every time you wrote something witty, would that fulfill you and give you happiness?

Somehow I'm frightened by beautiful women.
They actually scare a great deal of men, if that makes you feel any better.

But ask yourself why. Ask yourself what kind of man would not be frightened, and again, why.

Everytime I'm about to approach them, I stop, unless I'm piss drunk In which case I suprisingly do okay with nailing women.

Stop that. What kind of women do you think they are, if they like you when you're drunk? Do you really want that kind of woman? No really, ask yourself these questions. What kind of woman are they? It's not unmanly to try and see things from a woman's point of view. If you were a female, what kind of attitude and personality would you need to have to fall for some drunken guy flirting with you? And what kind of a man would settle for that?

When I'm about to walk up to them I think "No way in hell I can succeed with her, she could get anyone, why me?"
Why you? That's a good question. Here's a better one: Why her? You need to have higher standards - and in order to have higher standards, you have to have higher standards for YOURSELF. And in order to have higher standards for yourself, you need to have self-esteem.

You need to be the one who is selective, not the one who gets selected.

How does one get self-esteem? One of two ways: 1) Submit to other people's standards, seek their approval by whatever means possible. 2) Set your own standards and principles that you can be proud of, and live up to them.

I suggest you read "The Fountainhead" if you haven't already, because it is very relevent to this subject.

It's strange but considering my looks, I could pretty much get anyone I would want.

Who is "anyone I would want" and why would you want them? If I was a woman, you wouldn't get me, that's for sure.

And as an aside question: Do you know if you're in the right forum?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys, looks don't matter much to women. WE'RE the ones that need to be good-looking. Women put on dresses, makeup, high heels, etc. to attract a man.

WOMEN are the VALUE. MEN are the VALUERS.

Women want someone they can look up to. You have to have self-esteem.

How does one get self-esteem? One of two ways: 1) Submit to other people's standards, seek their approval by whatever means possible. 2) Set your own standards and principles that you can be proud of, and live up to them.

Real self-esteem doesn't come from #1. That's a second hander's way of pretending to have self-esteem. Real self esteem comes from achieving your goals. (I shouldn't have to separate real from percieved, but apparently it's unclear.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Women want someone they can look up to.  You have to have self-esteem.

Real self-esteem doesn't come from #1.  That's a second hander's way of pretending to have self-esteem.

I realise that just as well as you did, but I didn't want to sidetrack from the point I was making. I think I was being imprecise rather than inaccurate. I agree totally that #1 is psuedo-self-esteem (because you're not actually holding yourself in any regard, since you didn't use your own judgement).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, thank you for the replies.

You say you're a social worker by trade but you're really an artist. THAT'S why you have no self-esteem; you're not feeling fulfilled. Reading doesn't give you self-esteem; achieving your goals does.
Yes, you may got something there. I'm definitely not doing what I want to with my life and it is really depressing. I'm not sure If I'm talented enough to succeed as an artist though...

Being good-looking isn't really that important to women - we want someone we can respect and look up to. Women don't want to have sex out of pity with some guy who reminds them of their pathetic kid brother. We want our own personal hero.

Yeah, and I do realise that. But I'm not too sure as to how I'm supposed to be a hero. I've saved a guy once who wanted to kill himself and I've loads and loads of volunteer work to help other people. I've always been very nice towards others. This doesn't seem satisfying however. My criterias are probably too high.

But let's back up a bit - why are you asking HERE? Are you looking for a romantic relationship? Re-read your post - it doesn't sound like it. You say you wish you were a hedonist rock star or something and you want to get "laid." As you've found, the only girls who will go for that are girls who have even lower self-esteem than you do. Go get yourself a hooker if that's what you want.
No, no. Not at all. I'm not looking to meet anyone from here. What I'm looking for is insights from convinced objectivists. I know Atlas Shrugged almost by heart and I certainly know a good deal about objectivism (or so I believe at the very least). This is why I am posting here out of anywhere. Because I want to improve. My life is not going the way I want it to. The womanising part is just one aspect of the whole deal, as you might've guessed.

No, I didn't say I wanted a hooker. I know you're trying to make me realise the absurdity of the whole thing, but I do want to have sex more often without necessarily always being in a relationship for it. Is that this unreasonable?

If, however, you want an Objectivist woman, you have to BE an Objectivist hero. If you want to be an Objectivist, you have to start by addressing your self-esteem issues.

Well, I've known that for years. But I have no clue as to how to deal with such a thing. I've seen therapists and I've read shitloads about it without that much change really. What's the use of knowing you've got some issue if you have no clue as to how to solve it?

AFC = Average Frustrated Chump. i.e. "unlucky" with the ladies.
Well to be honest, I've managed to get plenty of women. I just didn't get the women I really wanted.

Or to put it another way: you're average. But you don't really care about that... do you?

Well, to tell you the truth, I'd rather be 6'4'' and be somewhat brawnier, but that would be rather unreasonable, wouldn't? So yeah I am average height but I am athletic.

WRONG. Don't care what other people tell you. Count ONLY on your own judgement.

(Incidently, there's nothing wrong with skinny. But don't take my word for it.)

I don't know. There has to be something which we agree as a consensus. A is A, isn't supposed to be. It's not the end of the world that I'm skinny. I would like to believe the same way you do, to only rely on my judgement. But, I've got this gut feeling (I am aware this is very non-objectivist) that some things can be defined by a certain adjective by most people. Like this person is small or this one is big, same goes with appearance.

If nobody told you that you were intelligent, would you still think that you are?

I would. I do consider myself intelligent. I don't really have any scientifical proof, but I think I am as I can understand things a lot people can't. Then again sometimes I doubt it because I don't understand everything, but then again, listening to reason, who does? Then again how can we ever be certain that we are this or that specific way.

Ask yourself this: do you really want it to work? If you could get a woman to have sex with you every time you wrote something witty, would that fulfill you and give you happiness?
It'd certainly help! :)

They actually scare a great deal of men, if that makes you feel any better.

But ask yourself why. Ask yourself what kind of man would not be frightened, and again, why.

I would believe someone who's got a great job, an achiever with many friends and who's had many women in their life not to be scared by approaching very attractive women. In other words, confident males. Confidence is as much a mystery to me as the secret of the caramilk (although I'm progressing on the latest) :P .

Stop that. What kind of women do you think they are, if they like you when you're drunk? Do you really want that kind of woman? No really, ask yourself these questions. What kind of woman are they? It's not unmanly to try and see things from a woman's point of view. If you were a female, what kind of attitude and personality would you need to have to fall for some drunken guy flirting with you? And what kind of a man would settle for that?
Well maybe for one night. Listen, I know it might sound immoral to some of you, but I'm not a liar. I'm honest or at least I strive to be as often as possible. So I won't lie to you. But being a man, I've got trouble figuring out what it is that they want. Because being nice and funny and intelligent doesn't seem to give plenty of results. Well, okay, It does give out results sometimes, but not as often as I would want to.

Why you? That's a good question. Here's a better one: Why her? You need to have higher standards - and in order to have higher standards, you have to have higher standards for YOURSELF. And in order to have higher standards for yourself, you need to have self-esteem.

You need to be the one who is selective, not the one who gets selected.

How does one get self-esteem? One of two ways: 1) Submit to other people's standards, seek their approval by whatever means possible. 2) Set your own standards and principles that you can be proud of, and live up to them.

I suggest you read "The Fountainhead" if you haven't already, because it is very relevent to this subject.

Well, having better self-esteem has been told to me plenty of times. That doesn't give me so much of a clue as to how to do it however. I've considered buying the fountainhead. I probably will actually. More reading coming up... will it bring any solutions though... only time will tell I suppose.

Who is "anyone I would want" and why would you want them? If I was a woman, you wouldn't get me, that's for sure.

And as an aside question: Do you know if you're in the right forum?

Well, maybe you're right, maybe you're not, maybe I could get you, but that's all delusions anyway, so we can't know that for a fact.

You know, what I really am looking for is just someone who I find attractive enough that I desire her sexually but who will also understand and accept me as I am while always pushing me to be my best. This is what I am looking for. More than anything.

And I do think it's the right forum, as everything is linked. A change in one system of life inevitably brings change to all the aspects of someone's life. And I do think this is self-improvement, or at least at attempt to self-improve.

Thank you though, I prefer questions that lead to some personnal reflections than flat out answers.

Yours,

Etienne

Edited by Andromeda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a happily-married man, after a long search. Let me tell you what I know from first-hand experience.

You started out with a brief laundry list of things to describe yourself. These are the things you thought would be most relevant, or most essential to obtaining your desire. You mentioned that you were: funny, good looking, average height/weight, skinny and into sports. None of these things are essential to what you really ought to be seeking.

You then said that you were a social worker, but then later identified yourself as a "depressed artist". Let me ask you something: is being a social worker what you want to do with your life?

Then you reveal that you would like to get "laid" more, but you also have a feeling that its morally wrong, but you're envious of others who get "laid" a lot.

Let me tell you something: your feeling that its wrong is correct; those who 'bang' whatever they want are wrong. Further, you should not base your desires on what other people get, but only on what you want for yourself. Forget what the football players and such do. Your life and your happiness do not depend on them. They depend on your decisions and your actions, no one elses.

Ask yourself why you have a feeling that its wrong to 'bang whatever you want', without trying to convince yourself that the reasons are false. They most likely are not.

You will find that it is not women that you seek, but rather a woman. There is a huge difference. And the more you inspect yourself, the more you will be able to define logically, what characteristics that woman will have both physically and mentally.

When you ask yourself "why me?" with regards to approaching women you find beautiful, you are really asking a question of yourself in a much broader context. "Why me?" means "Am I worthy?" What makes you worthy of someone's affection? What is there of you for someone else to love?

Reading psychology books will tell you that its about self-esteem, but they won't tell you how to get it. In order to achieve self-esteem, you must use reason to set goals for your life, and then take action to achieve them. Once you have achieved them, you will feel proud of your accomplishment -- that is self-esteem. You will hold yourself in high regard as a man who is efficacious. When you have that, a woman -- the right one -- will notice, and let you know she's interested.

The key here is that the goals you set for life, while they may include romance, cannot be primarily "romance". You have to choose your life's purpose (for me, computer networking) and take steps to achieve that purpose, and actually have something for which you can be proud of yourself. Then, and only then, are you ready for romance.

To quote an Ayn Rand character from one of her novels (and probably not precisely): "In order to say 'I love you', you must first know how to say the 'I'".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
but I do want to have sex more often without necessarily always being in a relationship for it. Is that this unreasonable?

Yes. No one here is going to help you do that. Sex should prerequire a very serious relationship. No Objectivist will ever suggest or help you do otherwise.

When I said the reasons you have for thinking that 'banging whatever you want' are most likely not wrong, what I meant was this:

Sex is not dirty in the sense that religious people think. Sex is good. But sex also requires something from your mind, not just your body. It is no more a mere writhing of animal flesh anymore than you are merely an animal.

You are a rational animal, with reason, volition, and very powerful emotions, and by your nature you must integrate them all. You can no more turn off your emotions any more than you can make your heart stop at will. If you fail to integrate them and instead achieve hedonism, you will only serve to weaken your self-esteem, not build it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you though, I prefer questions that lead to some personnal reflections than flat out answers.

You already know that you need self-esteem. That's the first step. :P

Like we've all said, the self-esteem comes from achieving your goals. If you need more guidance on what to reflect on, try reflecting on these:

- Why did you choose social work? Have you achieved any specific goals of which you are proud? What are they? List them on paper! Look at them. Think some more.

- Why do you consider yourself an artist? It sounds horrible that you say you're an artist but afraid of not doing well enough. I, too, am artistic. It takes practice to be good and to stay good. What do you want to achieve artistically? Go practice! You won't do it perfectly the first time. Start with sketches (if it's painting, drawing, or sculpture). With each sketch, examine what you like, what you don't like. Then re-sketch. Do it over and over again. Save your first sketches, so you can look at them and periodically compare your progress. It won't be the best the first time! DaVinci made a LOT of sketches before drawing his masterpieces.

- Are there other things you have achieved? Look at where you are now compared to 5 years ago, then 10 years ago. List your accomplishments, e.g. finishing school, getting your own place, etc. Write them down and reflect on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Andromeda, please note that the quotes in your last post did not work correctly because there is a limit on the number of quotes you may have in one post. I believe this number is ten, but you may want to ask a moderator to be sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm. I don't know how much I can add to this, but I can say from personal experience that being a musician and being hit on after shows by beautiful women isn't all that flattering. To me, at least, it always seems impersonal. I've never hooked up with someone that way.

You would think it would be good, because you know the girl values something you value- specifically, your music. But unfortunately, it could be she values something you don't value at all- the prestige of being with a publicly visible person (rock star, sports star, or whatever).

But, if you don't actually have high self esteem, it could be that you don't want someone who values what you value. Maybe you want someone to destroy what you value- or at least distract you from it. If so, it might make you feel better about yourself temporarily to be neurotically promiscuous. But seeing as that would be a quick fix at best, it definitely seems like a waste of time to *envy* people in that situation.

If all else fails, there are always strip clubs and brothels. Now is a superficial sexual connection *really* all you want?

Furthermore- if you sleep with a woman on fraudulent grounds, by "playing" them which implies that at least you percieve it as being dishonest- what does that do to your self esteem? At most, they can never love you! Only your game! Don't you think you can do better than that?

The real answer to your question is that the best women want genuine self confidence, not just bravado and an arrogant facade. It is immoral to get women to sleep with you by tricking them into thinking you're self confident (if that's what you meant by "playing" them), because it is an enormous insult to your own self esteem. But maybe that's not what you meant. I'm never sure what people mean when they use that language.

[edit: Well, that's not really an "answer", since your question was actually how to get genuine self confidence. But that was answered by another poster- confidence comes from acheiving your highest values.]

Edited by Bold Standard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Andromeda,

I will just say that reading your initial post he has made my temptations over the years or over the last weeks so easy to deal with. Ha!

You have concretized the second-hander in romance. It's like Newton's Apple on my head.

I will ride to work a happy man ... Maybe I'll have the opportunity to give a special serenade. Hmm...

Thanks,

Americo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the uninitiated, an "AFC" is an Average Frustrated Chump. It's a term used by a certain cult of playboys and pick-up artists, who apparently like to fancy themselves as Above Average in the chump department.

No, Andromeda, you're not an Average Frustrated Chump. You're a COMPLETE FREAKING IDIOT.

I can't believe that anybody is taking your post seriously. You come to an Objectivist forum, talk about "getting laid," "nailing" women, being "piss drunk" (which apparently improves your personality) — yet you lament that the ladies aren't lining up to jump your crass, pathetic bones.

Buddy, with your attitude, you'd be so LUCKY if one of those "below average" women forced herself on you at gunpoint. Hell, I can't believe you actually have female friends. Do you tell them about your problems finding a suitable partner to "bang"?

You say you're terrified of women. Big mystery there. I don't think you're clueless, I think you know exactly what's going on: Women (the good ones, at least) see you as a loser. And somewhere deep inside the recesses of your tiny brain, you know full well that they're right.

So maybe you're the spitting image of Tom Cruise or George Clooney — though I'd be skeptical about trusting your judgment about anything, especially your own physical attractiveness. Without the personality, sensitivity and intelligence behind the looks, it's all for naught. As much as I'm for the equality of the sexes, there's one thing women will always have over men: they fall in love first with their hearts, and with their bodies second.

I don't have any advice for you, beyond joining Alcoholics Anonymous, staying inside as much as possible, and maybe investing in one of these dolls — that's all you're looking for anyway, and it will spare you the trouble of keeping up with a REAL woman's demands — you know, like self-esteem, romance, respect . . .

[P.S. — I know this post is probably headed for the Trash Can, so here's a link back to the original post I'm responding to.]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andromeda, please note that the quotes in your last post did not work correctly because there is a limit on the number of quotes you may have in one post. I believe this number is ten, but you may want to ask a moderator to be sure.

Yes, it is ten.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, Andromeda, you're not an Average Frustrated Chump. You're a COMPLETE FREAKING IDIOT.

Thank you Kevin for stating what I was thinking all along.

Why is it that we feel we have to be so generous to those who are obviosly not rational, who come here and spit trash at us to analyze. NO ONE who comes here and asks for advice on how to get women to go to bed with him without any kind of emotional attatchment deserves any kind of reasoning or generous response.

As an objectivist, but foremost a woman, I can say to you, Andromeda, you are disgusting. You don't deserve any woman's time, and any woman you do "lay" will essentially amount to a whore. You cannot have a respectable intelligent woman without some kind of relationship. You say that you know Atlas Shrugged by heart, yet you seem to have forgotten one of the most profound speeches in the book, the explaination Fransisco gives Hank for having acted as a play-boy for years. Fransisco condenms men like you. Men who seek wealth without earning it, and sex without earning the respect of a valuable woman.

I'm sorry to be such a jerk, but you really deserve it.

Edited by Megan Robinson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you Kevin for stating what I was thinking all along.

Why is it that we feel we have to be so generous to those who are obviosly not rational, who come here and spit trash at us to analyze.

Nobody here said they feel that way.

I think his questions were honest, and so he deserves a reply in kind.

NO ONE who comes here and asks for advice on how to get women to go to bed with him without any kind of emotional attatchment deserves any kind of reasoning or generous response.
I think it is an understandable fallacy because there is an unfortunate abundance of females with the same attitude, and men can often fall into the wrong conclusion that that is what all women are like. Take this as an example:

But being a man, I've got trouble figuring out what it is that they want. Because being nice and funny and intelligent doesn't seem to give plenty of results.

Seeing sex as merely a function of the flesh is an idea that a lot of people embrace. I point this out as a way of saying: so we should combat it with a better idea.

Also, other people will be reading this thread, it may be of use to them as well as the person that the responses were intended for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just wanted to say that reading this thread really helped me put into words some of things I've been thinking about this subject for a while now. Your time and thoughts are very much appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bold standard:

Thanks for your reply. It's interesting to get another point of view coming from a musician.

What you say makes a lot of sense.

Americo:

I didn't understand your post. English isn't my first language, maybe clarifying things a bit might help getting your message across.

Kevin:

Hi Kevin.

I must admit I wasn't surprised by your post. And most importantly, I have nothing against you for stating your thoughts the way you did. I would've tought someone calling me an idiot according to what I truly struggle with would disturb me, but strangely, It didn't.

I can't believe that anybody is taking your post seriously. You come to an Objectivist forum, talk about "getting laid," "nailing" women, being "piss drunk" (which apparently improves your personality) — yet you lament that the ladies aren't lining up to jump your crass, pathetic bones.

Just a second now Kevin. I feel bad for you reacting so much about this, I really didn't think it would affect anyone that much. It's no big deal really.

Just so you know, It will not change anything to what you are thinking but that's ok, I have a tendency to wallow in self-pity. You see, I've had a pretty good life, but I sometimes have the habit to wallow in self-pity. I don't know why, I do, I just do it. Now you're welcome to call me an idiot or insult me just as much as you want, but it won't make a difference. However, if it helps you demonstrate your points, go ahead.

You know what's actually funny? I actually read your post with great interest and I thought some of what you said really did make some sense.

Buddy, with your attitude, you'd be so LUCKY if one of those "below average" women forced herself on you at gunpoint. Hell, I can't believe you actually have female friends. Do you tell them about your problems finding a suitable partner to "bang"?

Well, I'm not certain you're making a point of want an answer, but here's mine anyway. Well, believe it or not, I do have female friends. You probably have this reaction based on what little information you had on one post. Unfortunately, this doesn't represent the whole. I've always been caring of my female friends, always. Not a single person on earth will ever have the right to reproach this to me.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my formulation. I haven't had sex for a while and I'm really looking foward to it. But as I formulated my first post, that's just part of a whole situation, me lacking esteem for myself. It's been that way for years and might still be for a while. Now I'm sorry if this offend you, but I would like more sex. If that makes me a monster, well so be it.

You say you're terrified of women. Big mystery there. I don't think you're clueless, I think you know exactly what's going on: Women (the good ones, at least) see you as a loser. And somewhere deep inside the recesses of your tiny brain, you know full well that they're right.

Well, maybe they do and maybe they're right to. And I consider myself as a loser. It saddens me sometimes, because no matter what I do, I can't seem to modify this damn negative perception of myself. But I'll get there, eventually, I haven't given up yet.

So maybe you're the spitting image of Tom Cruise or George Clooney — though I'd be skeptical about trusting your judgment about anything, especially your own physical attractiveness. Without the personality, sensitivity and intelligence behind the looks, it's all for naught. As much as I'm for the equality of the sexes, there's one thing women will always have over men: they fall in love first with their hearts, and with their bodies second.

Well, I might not be much of a rationnal person, but I am handsome. Not that it really makes a big difference in my situation, but I believe I'm pretty objective on that one.

You know, you'll probably scoff when you'll read that, but I do consider myself intelligence. And I am extremely sensitive, which is probably why sometimes my judgement isn't as accurate as it should. And I don't think I've ever done something really reprehensible in my whole life. This is why I don't understand why I perceive myself so negatively.

As much as I'm for the equality of the sexes, there's one thing women will always have over men: they fall in love first with their hearts, and with their bodies second.
You know, I'm a romantic at heart. But somehow I sometimes find it difficult to believe that. I've been with the company of women for many years now, and what you said isn't exactly the case. I think it would be better if it was, but I don't think it is.

I don't have any advice for you, beyond joining Alcoholics Anonymous, staying inside as much as possible, and maybe investing in one of these dolls — that's all you're looking for anyway, and it will spare you the trouble of keeping up with a REAL woman's demands — you know, like self-esteem, romance, respect . . .

Woah slow down, buddy. That's a little harsh wouldn't you say. For the record, I've never "played" a woman. Well, I haven't done it often (2-3 times). And all that happened was a kiss and something else. I don't think I'm perfect and I don't think anyone is. I sometimes enjoy getting affection that way. I'm only human although you seem to think otherwise.

[P.S. — I know this post is probably headed for the Trash Can, so here's a link back to the original post I'm responding to.]

Ah c'mon, it's not that bad. You're really overreacting on this one. Still, thanks for your post. No hard feelings.

Why is it that we feel we have to be so generous to those who are obviosly not rational, who come here and spit trash at us to analyze. NO ONE who comes here and asks for advice on how to get women to go to bed with him without any kind of emotional attatchment deserves any kind of reasoning or generous response.

I wouldn't call it trash, but we apparently have different views on the topic.

But I don't understand why you're so upset about that. I know LOTS of women who have sex with other men (they call them "sex buddies"), without any sort of emotionnal attachment. Why is that so evil? They're wonderful person, most of them. I don't think I was being very rationnal. But does implying that only rational person deserve generousity is rationnal? I don't think so. But again, we have different opinions on the subject. I think whoever is rational actually helps himself and others by making them even more rational. Just a thought.

As an objectivist, but foremost a woman, I can say to you, Andromeda, you are disgusting. You don't deserve any woman's time, and any woman you do "lay" will essentially amount to a whore. You cannot have a respectable intelligent woman without some kind of relationship. You say that you know Atlas Shrugged by heart, yet you seem to have forgotten one of the most profound speeches in the book, the explaination Fransisco gives Hank for having acted as a play-boy for years. Fransisco condenms men like you. Men who seek wealth without earning it, and sex without earning the respect of a valuable woman.

You. are. overreacting. Listen carefully. I've had sex with one woman, ONE. I had been with this girl for a year or so. What's so goddamn disgusting about that? Absolutely nothing. I understand you misunderstood my post, but jees, disgusting, that's an exaggeration. I haven't forgotten anything about the book. I wanted to know some objectivists perspective on this and I did (and not halfway through).

I'm sorry to be such a jerk, but you really deserve it.

Bah, no hard feelings. I think we misunderstood each other, that's the only explanation I see for your reaction. I really wasn't affected by your comments, don't worry. I was interested however and I also realised I must've somehow stated something the wrong way to come to this.

Nobody here said they feel that way.

I think his questions were honest, and so he deserves a reply in kind.

My questions were honest. That's something I'm applying every single day: honesty. I realise you are subject to being judged or show your weaknesses when you are honest, but somehow I just don't mind. If someone decideds to judge me for being honest, fine. They can condemn me as much as they want for practicing a value, that won't make the slightest of a difference in the long run. Honesty above all.

I think it is an understandable fallacy because there is an unfortunate abundance of females with the same attitude, and men can often fall into the wrong conclusion that that is what all women are like. Take this as an example:

Yeah, that's true. I think my whole (irrational) reflection actually came partly because of realising what women want isn't exactly the same as what they say.

Seeing sex as merely a function of the flesh is an idea that a lot of people embrace. I point this out as a way of saying: so we should combat it with a better idea.

Also, other people will be reading this thread, it may be of use to them as well as the person that the responses were intended for.

Okay. Just an hypothesis. Why can't it be just a flesh idea, what would be so revulsing about that. Plenty of people do it and consider it ok to do it that way. Why is their belief system, while different, so fundamentally wrong and evil. Sounds so catholic! Now, before making any kind of personnal attacks, I am not saying this is how sex should be, I'm just curious as to why having sex without attachment is pure evil. That's all.

I think the present reply has clarified things a bit. If not, I don't know what will. Again, my intention was not to offend anyone. I simply honestly typed what I felt like at the moment I typed it, down to earth honest, as unpretty as it was to read.

I'll be looking foward to your replies, if any.

Etienne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is it you want Andromeda? Do you want us to tell you its ok to have non chalant sex with women, and tell you how to better achieve it? You keep saying that anyone here who's disagreed with you has clearly misunderstood. But you have stated clearly that what you want is just sex. No realationship, you just want to get "laid". You come to us, who profess a philosophy you respect, to give you advice on seducing women. If this is not your purpose then, please, state it explicitly.

Let me start by stating this: Ladies (yes, we still exist) cannot be seduced. Ladies are values to be achieved by men who deserve them. You can sleep with any whore in an attempt to satisfy yourself, but as Rand says in the embodiment of Francisco, you will not be fufilled, because you won't have earned it. Dagny Taggart is a lady, Ayn Rand was a lady, many of the women here are ladies, any woman who has sex with a man for fun without feeling any kind of love or deep respect for him is a whore. I'm sorry, but I don't know how to put it kindly, it is what it is. You may have known some women who had casual sex with men, that doesn't mean its ok. It's equally immoral for men and women. If this is the type of woman you want, fine. Don't come to an Objectivist Forum looking for sanctions.

Sex, in its proper sense does not exist without love. If you wish to have more sex without loving someone, yes, you are a monster. If you want advice on how to have a woman fall in love with you, ok. I'll help you. But if you just want to make her think you love her to use her, then please do all of us women a favor and lock yourself up. We don't want you.

If you are sincere in wanting an actual respectable woman as a companion (a lady, if you will) I'll tell you this: Women (despite what feminists say) love strength. Not just physical strength, but most importatntly, strength of character. You've said you're a sensitive guy, which is a plus, but not a winner. The poetry writing, sweet guy is a great friend. He listens, he shares and understands feelings. But when it comes to a romantic partner, a guy who has a set of values he never waivers from, and whose honesty and intelligence are emminent, is always attractive. A man's posture in itself states a lot about his character. How he holds himself and behaves in his environment. Rand knew this. Notice how she describes Galt and Roark's postures and mannerisms. I guess its pride. The attractive part of a man's poture and manneisms is his pride in himself. He is proud of everything he is and everything he stands for.

Keep in mind that this advice is only good for respectable women. If all you want is sex, you're on your own, because most women who just want sex have no rational set of values. They are more or less all over the place. They'll get in bed with you because you're wearing a certain color shoes, or your hair just has that "look". And if thats what you want, you don't belong here anyway.

Edited by Megan Robinson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Etienne,

You mentioned in your first post that you've "studied psychology far and wide." If so, the following proposition might not sound so strange.. You ask "why having sex without attachment is pure evil." But I challenge you to search yourself and ask whether it is actually *possible*. Because you are speaking as if it were-- and I mean no attatchment, psychologically. If flesh, specifically the flesh of another person, represents- as you suggest- an idea, then sex with no attatchment would mean you have no attatchment to the idea, as well as to the person- since the person is your reification of the idea.

In that case, if you take what you say litterally (in other words, if you really mean what you say), sex without attatchment could have two possible interpretations (that I can think of). One would be that sex has no meaning- that you want to have sex for no reason: it's just an animal drive. Sex is an idea, but you have no attatchment to the idea- it's just like any other idea you're confronted with, as though your state of consciousness were like watching a movie, and colors and shapes and ideas come and go and you grab which ever ones look pretty or you change the channel.

The other interpretation would be that you use sex to get rid of ideas you are afraid of or don't understand. In this version, you are attatched to the idea- there is a connection in sex-- but as soon as it's over, the idea has satisfied itself and you can move on. If this were the case, you're in a position in which you just *have to know* what it's like to sleep with a hot cheerleader. Or an authority figure, like a boss at work. Or maybe someone you don't get along with who really makes you angry- it would mean some kind of a hidden victory you could never win with words. Or maybe you want to know that you've slept with more women in a given week than your Cassanova buddy. Still it's an idea, and there is an attatchment, but the attatchment is severed after the act has occured.

I submit that these scenarios might fill certain psychological needs for an undeveloped person- but there is an element of self-deception involved. The first is an outright refusal to face reality. You've placed the locus of controll in the external world, or in "instincts" acting on you beyond your power. You're a victim to the universe and only sex can save you! But, sorry, it never will.

In the second version, you're refusing to deal with your anxieties directly. You can solve your problems, but only if you can recreate them in a sexual situation- then, upon orgasm, you'll suddenly gain the power and courage needed to deal with your social insecurity, your desire for authority over yourself, your feelings of inadequacy in exchanges with an intellectual superior, or your dogmatic envy for other men who score lots of chicks- like men are "supposed" to do.

Maybe these archetypes of sexual promiscuity are not the one you specifically envision for yourself, but in principle, I hold that the psychology of a promiscuous person is rarely, if ever, something to aspire to.

Objectivism certainly does not hold sex to be an evil thing. Only *indiscriminate* sex is evil- because it's self destructive. Flesh should be recognized as an idea- and also as a physical reality. And even still I'm not saying that so called "casual sex" is necissarilly always wrong. I think there's a place for it- provided there's no self-deception *or* deception of the other person going on, and provided you're sure neither you or the other person has a disease, and so on. But in order to be fully honest with yourself regarding sex, I think it's essential to recognize that, as you said- sex is an idea-- and that idea stands for some *value* of yours.

The ultimate choice comes down to how you choose your values, and why. How does the person you choose to have a sexual relationship with represent your value to you? How is an encounter with this person going to benifit you, psychologically? What is sex with this person going to mean for your self-esteem, and why? Those are questions I would ask. If you can't answer them, why *should* the other person want to sleep with you?

But, then, I think it's possible for people to be rational. And I don't think human nature is flawed. And I think if there really is no attatchment to any value or idea or person involved in sex- then sex is not pure evil, but instead it's rather pointless. And you're oppening yourself up to disease and unwanted pregnancy for no reason, which is evil if you regard self-interest as the standard for whether an action is good or evil.

-DRM

Okay. Just an hypothesis. Why can't it be just a flesh idea, what would be so revulsing about that. Plenty of people do it and consider it ok to do it that way. Why is their belief system, while different, so fundamentally wrong and evil. Sounds so catholic! Now, before making any kind of personnal attacks, I am not saying this is how sex should be, I'm just curious as to why having sex without attachment is pure evil. That's all.

I think the present reply has clarified things a bit. If not, I don't know what will. Again, my intention was not to offend anyone. I simply honestly typed what I felt like at the moment I typed it, down to earth honest, as unpretty as it was to read.

I'll be looking foward to your replies, if any.

Etienne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to wonder if you have ever experienced sex with some one you truly love and want to be with. I have and being able to feel that made me decide that I don't want to sleep with any one that I don't have those feelings for. Sex just for sex is unfulfilling and shallow. And I say that as an absolute. Having sex is just part of something greater. Experiencing it without love is like seeing a Monet in black and white. It's still a good painting, but you won't be able to appreciate the genius of the color and depth. You'll be left wanting more. Sex is the same way. Without love, you just catch a glimpse of some thing beautiful without ever comprehending how incredible sharing that with some one you love can be. Companionship is much more valuable than sex.

Please excuse the awkward analogy. I couldn't think of another way to put it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, Andromeda, you're not an Average Frustrated Chump. You're a COMPLETE FREAKING IDIOT.

Alas Kevin spoke the truth!

Andromeda, what the hell is wrong with you?

A good and satisfying (emotionally & physically) relationship stems from love and respect for your woman! So step back consider what exactly is respectful about "wanting to play the girl to get laid"! Yikes!

If you were to say all the bull you just said on a woman's face, you should rightfully be slapped by her!!

You got a lot of thinking to do before you go looking for someone to have a relationship with.

Dinesh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...