Salmonella crisis

[Devils_Advocate]

Well, the FDA declared it's okay to eat them, but they still don't know where the poison came from.

I haven't seen any posts on the topic (if there was one, please leave a link, sorry I missed it), so I decided to ask: How would such a crisis be treated in a Laissez fiare state?

Any thoughts?

[EC]

Well, the FDA declared it's okay to eat them, but they still don't know where the poison came from.

I haven't seen any posts on the topic (if there was one, please leave a link, sorry I missed it), so I decided to ask: How would such a crisis be treated in a Laissez fiare state?

Any thoughts?

To eat what? What crisis? Has there been a Salmonella outbreak? The only way the government would be involved in this would be in resolving any lawsuits resulting from negligence.

[Devils_Advocate]

To eat what? What crisis? Has there been a Salmonella outbreak? The only way the government would be involved in this would be in resolving any lawsuits resulting from negligence.

http://www.ajc.com/wednesday/content/healt...eline_0717.html

1200 people have been infected with Salmonella from Tomatoes. How would such a problem be handled in a free market society? 1200 illnesses, there should probably be something done. I agree that the Government shouldn't be the awnser, but in a free market society, what would it be?

[DavidOdden]

How would such a crisis be treated in a Laissez fiare state?

You mean, how would one manufacture such a pseudo-crisis? Dang hard.

[K-Mac]

I thought they decided it wasn't the tomatoes, but the jalepenos? They probably aren't even sure of that!

[Devils_Advocate]

I thought they decided it wasn't the tomatoes, but the jalepenos? They probably aren't even sure of that!

Government: Not only should they not get in it, when they do, they have no clue what's going on!

[The Anthem]

I may be mistaken, but I believe the last two salmonella outbreaks before this one were traced back to organic foods, which are treated with natural fertilaizers and pesticides, which are far more dangerous than synthetic ones. Presumably, we wouldn't have to deal with something absurd as organic food. In a laissez faire society, farmers would be free to use the cheapest most effective forms of farming, using synthetic fertilizers and pesticides.

[Devils_Advocate]

I may be mistaken, but I believe the last two salmonella outbreaks before this one were traced back to organic foods, which are treated with natural fertilaizers and pesticides, which are far more dangerous than synthetic ones. Presumably, we wouldn't have to deal with something absurd as organic food. In a laissez faire society, farmers would be free to use the cheapest most effective forms of farming, using synthetic fertilizers and pesticides.

Thank you!

[themadkat]

I may be mistaken, but I believe the last two salmonella outbreaks before this one were traced back to organic foods, which are treated with natural fertilaizers and pesticides, which are far more dangerous than synthetic ones. Presumably, we wouldn't have to deal with something absurd as organic food. In a laissez faire society, farmers would be free to use the cheapest most effective forms of farming, using synthetic fertilizers and pesticides.

Do you have any evidence to support this? A link or something? This is news to me.

[softwareNerd]

Do you have any evidence to support this? A link or something? This is news to me.

I'm not sure, but there may be some info in this old thread.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

There's nothing about the free market that would guarantee that people wouldn't still jump on silly fads.

Of course if people in general are that silly, it probably won't stay a free market for long. (Insert plug here for ARI's project to change the culture.)

Edited July 18, 2008 by Steve D'Ippolito

[pam]

My opinion (since the FDA won't disclose the information) is that these and all other questionable produce came from Mexico.

(My understanding is the workers relieve themselves in the fields and they use human waste as fertilizer-I could very well be wrong though. OK I heard it on Michael Savage's show and I agree.)

Some govt entity put a stall on all "Mexican" produce recently I don't know if that has been lifted.

This is what happens in a global economy, everything is sold at the lowest to the highest.

I admire the concept of laissez faire (sp?) but in a GLOBAL market where there are so many players without scruples, is that even possible?

Edited July 19, 2008 by pam

[01503]

http://www.salmonellablog.com/

Thats the source I could fine that seemed the most professional. Others cited no sources besides other articles with no sources.

[DavidOdden]

My opinion (since the FDA won't disclose the information) is that these and all other questionable produce came from Mexico.

Well, if this is true, you need to provide your evidence, and make these facts well-known. You should not depend on government approval to determine the safety of your food. Take responsibility for your own life! Of course, you need to have facts and not just a feeling, to support that accusation. We have a competing theory that it is due to the American "organic" cabal (hippy spinach, Odwalla killer juice, diseased sesame seeds, toxic sprouts). One thing is for sure: it is caused by government interference in the free market.

[pam]

Well, if this is true, you need to provide your evidence, and make these facts well-known. You should not depend on government approval to determine the safety of your food. Take responsibility for your own life! Of course, you need to have facts and not just a feeling, to support that accusation. We have a competing theory that it is due to the American "organic" cabal (hippy spinach, Odwalla killer juice, diseased sesame seeds, toxic sprouts). One thing is for sure: it is caused by government interference in the free market.

I heard Odwalla juice was making people sick awhile ago , now it is $3 a bottle.

I cannot state facts I do not have them, just a theory at the very least.

Does one need to take responsibility for their own life down to the food they eat and the air they breathe and the water they wash with and drink?

A person could spend all day/all of their lives just figuring those things out. Can't we hold anyone else accountable ? I think we can. We pay taxes.

(ok I realize that is pretty funny)

Pam

[K-Mac]

I have a question. If you have a contaminated tomato, wouldn't washing it take care of any problems? I mean, you've got cows crazing over there, tomatoes growing over here, it stands to reason that runoff could cause some commingling of things you don't want in your salad, so isn't that why you're supposed to wash produce and fruit? Is the toxic stuff down in the tomato, or just sitting on the outside and some gross people aren't cleaning (or cooking, in the case of meats) their food properly??

[pam]

I have a question. If you have a contaminated tomato, wouldn't washing it take care of any problems? I mean, you've got cows crazing over there, tomatoes growing over here, it stands to reason that runoff could cause some commingling of things you don't want in your salad, so isn't that why you're supposed to wash produce and fruit? Is the toxic stuff down in the tomato, or just sitting on the outside and some gross people aren't cleaning (or cooking, in the case of meats) their food properly??

If the plant was grown in contaminated soil I think it would be all through the plant and it's fruit, but I am not a botanist.

[Drew1776]

some gross people aren't cleaning (or cooking, in the case of meats) their food properly??

I really don't think there's anything "gross" about not cleaning tomatoes (or other items for that matter).

If the plant was grown in contaminated soil I think it would be all through the plant and it's fruit, but I am not a botanist.

Salmonella does not infect tomato plants. The bacteria me be able to lay dormant on a tomato (or an object) for a time but it does not infect.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Drew1776

[themadkat]

I have a question. If you have a contaminated tomato, wouldn't washing it take care of any problems? I mean, you've got cows crazing over there, tomatoes growing over here, it stands to reason that runoff could cause some commingling of things you don't want in your salad, so isn't that why you're supposed to wash produce and fruit? Is the toxic stuff down in the tomato, or just sitting on the outside and some gross people aren't cleaning (or cooking, in the case of meats) their food properly??

You are correct that the problem is on the surface of the tomato, not anything inside. However, once a bacterium is well-established, it can form something called a "biofilm" whereby the individual cells sort of glom together in a goo and protect the deeper layers of bacteria from environmental stressors. This could explain why a tainted tomato may not be rendered safe even by washing (of course, many of these tomatoes ended up in restaurants...you may be giving the restaurants too much credit if you assume they wash all the produce).

Also, at the risk of being indelicate, not all shit is created equal. Cow dung, for example, does not contain salmonella. I'm not sure what does but I've heard about Pam's assertion that we are getting contaminated produce from Mexico, and this seems feasible to me. Human waste is some of the nastier waste there is. You don't want it anywhere near your food, that's for sure. Depending on what they have been eating, crap from herbivores is usually not so bad and, in fact, is a great natural fertilizer (i.e. horse dung).

Someone brought up the risks of unpasteurized juice with the Odwalla scare a few years back. I think that although everyone should understand what it means to drink unpasteurized beverages and the risks involved there are still rational reasons for doing so. I have had unpasteurized apple cider from local farms on many occasions and it is delicious. There is no comparison to the pasteurized stuff. It's also much better for you in terms of nutrients (pasteurization, and really any process that subjects produce to extremely high temperatures, destroys most of the stuff in the food that makes it good for you in the first place). To make unpasteurized food viable though you need to start with higher quality food in the first place and that is why it is not viable in most mainstream commercial distribution. But really, given the choice of drinking safe raw milk and the pasteurized, homogenized stuff from the store, there's no comparison. The raw stuff is so much better.

[pam]

I LOVE raw milk-Yum!

[Scott_Connery]

I like raw milk, and especially cheese made from raw milk. It tends to be much more flavorful in my experience.

[themadkat]

I'm not sure, but there may be some info in this old thread.

Thanks SN, I checked out that thread. It makes a bit more sense where people are coming from now. I have to say I disagree with the way farmers markets were characterized by those who would discredit them, but granted my experience with farmers' markets is rural, not urban, and it has been the case that I am looking the person who grew my food in the eye and shaking his hand. I do not doubt that farmers' markets in the city may be a yuppie affectation and I will take care once I move to a new location to make sure the people at the farmers' market are actually, well, farmers.

I like raw milk, and especially cheese made from raw milk. It tends to be much more flavorful in my experience.

Well, I wouldn't know about that, simply because I hate cheese LOL But I'd love to have some yogurt made from raw milk. Or some butter. I can think of few foods that butter doesn't improve.

[softwareNerd]

Nine years after being petitioned, the FDA has allowed radiation to be used on spinach and iceberg lettuce.

But in 2006, after an E. coli outbreak traced back to spinach left hundreds ill and three dead, the petitioners went back to the FDA asking the agency to look specifically at iceberg lettuce and spinach.

See another recent FDA story here.

[HT: "Freespace"]

[K-Mac]

I really don't think there's anything "gross" about not cleaning tomatoes (or other items for that matter).

Really?! I clean them, if for no other reason, because other people, from production to the grocery store, have been handling them. Yuck! I don't know what those people had on their hands. I do know that a lot of people don't wash their hands (properly) after going to the bathroom, and if human waste is among the most toxic of things that can be on fruits and veggies, per Kat's post above, it sounds like you're asking for trouble. I had food poisoning once and nothing solid came out of me for a full week. I literally wanted to die I felt so awful. If you want to go through that and fool yourself into believing it's not gross, be my guest, but it IS gross.

Edited August 22, 2008 by K-Mac