How Can A Christian And An Objectivist Have Relations?

[dadmonson]

I don't want to wait for an atheist to come along.

I see a bunch of claims on this board about how a Christian and an Objectivist(Atheist is too broad of a term) can have romantic relations but I don't see how. How can an avid Church goer and an Objectivist be in a successful relationship? I don't want to control them or come across like I'm trying to change them and I don't want them to try to control or try to manipulate me. The few girl that I like is christian and goes to church.

Edited February 5, 2009 by dadmonson

[RationalBiker]

I am married to a christian woman so I would say yes. However, I was married to my wife long before I started trying to integrate Objectivism into my life though. Also, after 20 years of marriage, I was not willing to throw away the committment I made to a woman who loves me and who has been good for me just because I adjusted my philosophical leanings.

She goes to church on Sunday, I don't. We've discussed our different ideas but we don't generally do that very often anymore. She is not as much of an altruist as is often associated with christianity on this forum (from my perspective).

If you have some more specific questions perhaps I can answer them.

Edited February 5, 2009 by RationalBiker

[wilicyote]

I am married to a woman was a christian. Just as RationalBiker, I remained in our marriage after I discovered objectivism for the same reasons. Over time she has abandond most of her christian thought, quit church, adopted almost all premises of objectivism, and is right on the edge of giving up her belief in the existence of god. What won her over was not my skill in philosophical debate. It was my sustained committment and success at living objectivism in my daily life. I became happier, more successful in my endevors, wiser in my decision making - especially in regards to childraising, and eventually she saw that my philosophy worked better than hers so she jumped the fence.

I had great confidence that this would eventually happen, but not certainty. My enduring patience may have been aided by the total absence of any other objectivist woman who might have been able to supplant her (alas they are so rare).

So yes, it is possible but requires certain circumstances to work. And yes it does require compromise... at least in the short term.

Now, would I recommend someone embarking on a new relationship with someone with such a different philosophical perspective, with the hopes that the other party would come around to your way of thinking? Never.

[Akin]

Now, would I recommend someone embarking on a new relationship with someone with such a different philosophical perspective, with the hopes that the other party would come around to your way of thinking? Never.

I absolutely agree. It has been my experience that it will cause both parties grief and misery. If there is a pre-existing relationship, that is one thing (and I mean a serious one: as in years under your belt), otherwise:

You're right about it not working

DON'T DO IT

[Sarrisan]

I may be a bit out of my league (I've never had a really serious relationship like you are talking about), but is there anything that will prevent you from doing a, ahem, "trial run?" My parents lived with each other for eight months before they got married, and they say it was the best thing they ever did, allowing them to know get to really know each other before they made the ultimate commitment.

I guess what I'm asking here is, what is there to lose by simply trying?

[wilicyote]

I may be a bit out of my league (I've never had a really serious relationship like you are talking about), but is there anything that will prevent you from doing a, ahem, "trial run?" My parents lived with each other for eight months before they got married, and they say it was the best thing they ever did, allowing them to know get to really know each other before they made the ultimate commitment.

I guess what I'm asking here is, what is there to lose by simply trying?

Just don't make promises or children during your trial run.

[RationalBiker]

I guess what I'm asking here is, what is there to lose by simply trying?

Well, the list of things someone could potentially lose by simply trying could be very long. Entering into any serious relationship can have pitfalls depending on how either or both parties enter into the relationship. That's not to say that the risks aren't necessarily worth assuming, but "simply trying" can be far more complicated than you might imagine.

Edited February 5, 2009 by RationalBiker

[Sarrisan]

Well, the list of things someone could potentially lose by simply trying could be very long. Entering into any serious relationship can have pitfalls depending on how either or both parties enter into the relationship. That's not to say that the risks aren't necessarily worth assuming, but "simply trying" can be far more complicated than you might imagine.

Perhaps, but aren't there significant risks in any relationship? Even if you find someone perfectly compatible philosophically, there is no guarantee that it will work out. Thus, taking some time to be sure you're good together seems reasonable in any situation - and if you don't have anyone else, well, why not try, as long as you make clear with her your possible long-term commitments (Or lack thereof)?

Being a Christian though, I can imagine she might have a problem with such an idea. Depends on whether she's the hardliner type or the more casual religious person (My parents both consider themselves Christian, and see nothing wrong with being semi-married for the better part of a year).

EDIT: Apostrophe troubles.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Sarrisan

[RationalBiker]

Perhaps, but aren't there significant risks in any relationship?

I was just answering the question forwarded.

[K-Mac]

I think finding someone rational that shares your values is key. There are lots of quasi-Christians in this country that are very rational and independent and even more that don't go to church often, if at all.

[JMeganSnow]

It also depends on how seriously intellectual *you* are and your particular hierarchy of values with respect to potential romance partners. If you're only looking for someone who likes sex and movies, their religion isn't going to be a big problem for you. Granted, I'd call such a relationship painfully shallow, but depending on your personal situation and life it might suit you for the present. Just be aware that you'll likely grow out of it.

[AMERICONORMAN]

I decided at 20, I would learn philosophy to the greatest level possible to me. 40 is going to be a good year. I could certainly be in a relationship with a non-Objectivist, so long as this person is coming along over time. But eventually, if there is evasion in why this person holds on to bad premises, then the relationship will end. I understand how hard it is to understand Objectivism and apply it in this Machiavellian world, so I'm much more accepting of non-Objectivists than I was at the very beginning. At this point I find something very sexy in a "teacher"/"student" type of relationship, where one is guiding the other along to understand PHILOSOPHY first hand.

The evil of Altruism is not that hard to understand. Over the years, it has to be given up. When and under what circumstances? I don't know. But it will have to end. Atheim is like a nice cherry but it is certainly not enough.

Though Christianity is very unattractive, one has to find out why this person is a Christian? Sense of life is key. A Christian sense of life is simply unacceptable. So a person with Christian metaphysical value-judgments is possible, but those values need to change over time.

In my experience, I have found Jews more compatible than Christians. So I'm very interested in Jews right now.

Disclaimer: I don't like to judge other peoples' romantic relationships because there is so much involved that is none of my business. So if you're in love, good for you. I have never been in love.

[K-Mac]

A study about marriages and religious beliefs... http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1116/religious...d-relationships

[jws1776]

I don't want to wait for an atheist to come along.

I see a bunch of claims on this board about how a Christian and an Objectivist(Atheist is too broad of a term) can have romantic relations but I don't see how. How can an avid Church goer and an Objectivist be in a successful relationship? I don't want to control them or come across like I'm trying to change them and I don't want them to try to control or try to manipulate me. The few girl that I like is christian and goes to church.

Great question and one that applies to a relationship I was in over a year ago that lasted a year and a half. An ex-girlfriend that I had not seen in over a decade since college tracked me down (thx Facebook!) and initiated contact. We had not spoken or seen each other in over a decade and in that amount of time, I became an Objectivist or at least more of one than I could have possibly been when I was younger - in a sense, the evolutionary process took place and I matured, learned enough and integrated it all into my life to at that point honestly consider myself an Objectivist. Over that decade apart, my ex-girlfriend became more of a Christian than I had remembered - it was a part of every aspect of her life. Bible study on Wednesdays with a group of women, church on Sunday, constantly referencing "Jesus" in conversations and incorporating her religious beliefs into her political views, etc, etc. She was really involved with her church, talked about God all of the time and it was way out there.

So how can an avid Chruch goer and an Objectivist be in a successful relationship? - There is no way whatsoever if I had kept things going with her after a year and half back during round two that it would have ever worked out past the physical side of things and in hindsight that is all that was there during the entire relationship. She was very "un-Christian" if that is even a word when the lights were out and that was all we had to work on a decade prior and then after her return. So physically - it was a non-stop porn fest for over a year and a half, but I could never take her seriously as a person in terms of her religious beliefs and a really weird, almost immature approach to life that stemmed somewhat from her religious beliefs. Her Christian faith was something she had a way of putting on hold when it was convienient for her to do so and when it was time to do what we had always seemed to do best, she was more like a possesed demon sent from hell than anything that could been sent by "God".

In the end, the relationship could have been considered successful sexually but not on any other level - we certainly didn't connect as individuals intellectually or spiritually, etc. I could never have a logical, rational coversation with her, she was not very intelligent, her life (on the outside) seemed to evolve around her faith, Jesus, God, etc and the relationsip could have never evolved past the physical side of things and with just that, I was left feeling empty sometimes. I can blame it on hormones, lust, neuro-chemicals or whatever steered me off course again and was against everything my brain was telling me to do, but there is something great about waking up after spending three days trapped in a hotel room in Cabo surviving off of a case of bottled water and a few Zone bars engaged in a non-stop porn induced sex marathon looking around at a room that in another time and place might resemble a crime scene and realizing you still have four more days to go in a never ending quest for the next orgasm. It was a combination of pleasure & pain - passion, lust and at time hate on those long nights where I seemed to have gotten lost and not really cared if she was into "Jesus" and thought the war in Iraq was part of "prophecy". So we let things run their course, and time took it's toll. Occasional arguments led to a few days at a time without talking, followed by her neurotic need for "make up sex" then it was back to normal for a while and then I just couldn't take it anymore and every moment I was with her, I realized on some level that I was lying to myself on so many levels. So we went our separate ways.....

jws