Coffee

[Space Patroller]

What's the use of twelveths?

Anyway, can you grasp one sixth of an inch? I can easily grasp 1.6 millimeters easily 1/6 of a centimeter). Unless you're phobic about the decimal point, I see no advantage to esoteric factors compared to fractions of ten.

Two things

1) I can grasp 1/3 of a foot without it being an infinite decimal (but not 1/5 or 1/7)

2) integers play a large role in math

If you have 10 donuts and 3 persons, how do you parcel them out? If I have 12 donutes and 2, 3, 4, or 6 persons, I can do that

Just because you and I arne't phobic about the decimal point. Being me, one of my accessories is a calculator anywy: A SCIENTIFIC calculator. But I don't have delusions of being everybody. Some persons have other things to do I'm at home in either system But for human activities the duodecimal fits best. Next is the hexadecimal, COMPTERS ANYONE? Aoout the weakest systems would be th septimal, 1 and 7, or the 11tal; 1, 11. Even base 16 gets a bit unwielday in size. and that's thw whole 1b'.

Besides, in my browser I have this:

http://console.spacepatrol.us/000starthere.html

which I used yesterday to convert 117mm to inches so that I could get an idea of what the object lookedl like

The other problem is that the base unit of lenth of the English system is the inch, a very visible unit in size and you work up from there. for the metric it's the meter which is a bit large for comprehensibilit, requiring tow hands to express rather than two fingers. The individual mm is indecernable and the individual cem nearly so. Could you discern the weight of a gram in your hand?

I presume here that we are using Man as the standard of value, not machines, which are a creation and therefore a devivative of Man who therefore has metaphysical pre-eminence here.

Also in response to the claim that the English system is so bad because the resto of the world doens't use it. Would you care to live under the political and economic systems of the rest of the world, read: Socialism, Communism, Welfare Stat, tribalism, theocracy, etc? If you want to throw "the rest of the world" at me. Who saved their ass twice in a big way and several times in small ways? That is a fact of reality. To which nation did Ayn Rand choose to emigrate and why? and that is a fact of reality. The idea that something is good because it is used by a majoriyt of moribund, underdeveloped or developing nations is so collectivistic and avoiding of the issue that it ought not even be uttered in this place for the anti-Objectivism it displays Remember the majority of the world believes in supernatural deities. I guess that makes Objectivism bad since the rest of the world doesn't use it. Also on which leg of the journey is the boat fuller: Coming to the US or going from the US? and for most of the latter, the stay is temporary. I don't see China, Russia, Iran or Saudi Arabia bitching about illega immigration. Don't throw the rest of the world as a justifacaion for anything at me because I'll concede it and ask you if all of it is what you really want? When you let the cat in, does she leave her tail outsie? As Miss Rand said on several occations. "Accept it and take them at their word, then follow the logic". Now let's watch all the picking and choosing that goes on, which will be a total distraction reminiscent of a Frisco D'Anconia-caused circus.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Space Patroller

[D'kian]

Obviously I haven't been watching good ones at work. And there I was, thinking that these shops, after spending thouands buying these machines and selling expensive coffee, would at least teach their staff how to use the things properly.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have yet to watch the baristas at Starbucks work. I don't go to Starbucks often because I don't like their coffee. Oh, it's good coffee, but they roast the beans too dark. To me it tastes burnt. I patronize smaller places, largely locals with names like "Cafe Diletto," "Coffee Station," etc. Also nameless small concession stands outside dubway stations.

Anyway, as I said they always do the milk first, then add the coffee. I don't see how you could do it otherwise and expect the milk to stay separate from the coffee (go to a nice italian place and order a capuccino in a tall glass to see what I mean).

[D'kian]

Two things

1) I can grasp 1/3 of a foot without it being an infinite decimal (but not 1/5 or 1/7)

2) integers play a large role in math

1) A third of a meter is easy to grasp: 1/3 of a meter. If necessary it can be expressed as 33.33 cm (past the fraction of a millimeter things are too small to grasp).

2) Yes they do. But fractions also play an important role in math. Both being numbers and all....

If you have 10 donuts and 3 persons, how do you parcel them out? If I have 12 donutes and 2, 3, 4, or 6 persons, I can do that

Three and one third donuts each. Or three donuts each plus some small competition to see who gets the third. What's so hard about either one? BTW, what if you had 13 donuts? Obviously you should plan your pastry purchases with some attention to detail.

Just because you and I arne't phobic about the decimal point. Being me, one of my accessories is a calculator anywy: A SCIENTIFIC calculator. But I don't have delusions of being everybody. Some persons have other things to do I'm at home in either system But for human activities the duodecimal fits best.

Funny, then, that not a single igh civilization ever devised a duodecimal numbering system, isn't it? Granted you can go rpetty far with thoroughly irrational numbering systems. The Romans managed astonishing feats of engineering while using Roman numerals (and it doesn't get much worse than that). But there's a reason why the Indo-Arabic decimal system rules to this day.

The individual mm is indecernable and the individual cem nearly so. Could you discern the weight of a gram in your hand?

The centimeter is fully visible, so is the millimeter (there are small coins which measure little more than one millimeter in thickness, that hardly makes them two-dimensional). A gram? No, not by feel. But the basic unit is the kilogram. No one keeps a standard gram as far as I know.

The idea that something is good because it is used by a majoriyt of moribund, underdeveloped or developing nations is so collectivistic and avoiding of the issue that it ought not even be uttered in this place for the anti-Objectivism it displays

You asserted metric doesn't work in the real world. I countered that the large majority of the real world uses metric rather than something else.

A measuring system is amoral. I wouldn't try to discredit the US system because the South used it while keeping slaves, nor the metric system because the Nazis used it while they killed millions of people. And neither should you.

[D'kian]

BTW regarding coffee, all other considerations aside the most important aspect for making good coffee is to keep the equipment clean. In particualr the cofee pot and whatever you use for brewing (french press, drip, percolator, cone, wahtever). Any coffee bits must be cleaned away after making coffee. Otherwise bitter oils accumulate and will taint your next batch, making the coffee more bitter. If you've let a coffee pot on a hot plate too long, that's what coffee will eventually taste like in dirty equipment.

[Space Patroller]

1) A third of a meter is easy to grasp: 1/3 of a meter. If necessary it can be expressed as 33.33 cm (past the fraction of a millimeter things are too small to grasp).

2) Yes they do. But fractions also play an important role in math. Both being numbers and all....

Three and one third donuts each. Or three donuts each plus some small competition to see who gets the third. What's so hard about either one? BTW, what if you had 13 donuts? Obviously you should plan your pastry purchases with some attention to detail.

True but I'm a membe of the KISS school: Keep It Simple; Stupid. Your solution to my donute probem adds complications to things involving common fractions. How do I know that each person got exactly 1/3 of the remaing donut over which a quarrel may ensue or that the competion, which I must design around 3 possible strangers may lead to conflict...

Funny, then, that not a single igh civilization ever devised a duodecimal numbering system, isn't it? Granted you can go rpetty far with thoroughly irrational numbering systems. The Romans managed astonishing feats of engineering while using Roman numerals (and it doesn't get much worse than that [ADDED; Tell me about it and, they had no zero to boot]). But there's a reason why the Indo-Arabic decimal system rules to this day.

I don't know about the Persians number system but the duodecimal system is implicit in many of the things we measure. I think the decimal system arises from finger counting. I wonder what the Chinese had. When I learned multiplication, the table was 12x12, which puzzled me, so we must have gotten it from somewhere

I was able to find the Babylonian system.

http://www.math.wichita.edu/history/topics...html#babylonian

Were they a high civilization?

The centimeter is fully visible, so is the millimeter (there are small coins which measure little more than one millimeter in thickness, that hardly makes them two-dimensional).

just bearly 3D.

At 2.54 cm to the inch, that's tiny. and much greater fractionation than .5 and you start hitting the trasncopic i.e. hard to see and I'm using the human system as my benchmark.There are machines that work on the thousanths of an inch, but the are machines, not people

and how usable is the cm from 18+ inches out?

A gram? No, not by feel. But the basic unit is the kilogram. No one keeps a standard gram as far as I know.

I had several 1g weigths in my junior science lab 50 years ago.

You asserted metric doesn't work in the real world. I countered that the large majority of the real world uses metric rather than something else.

Touche! I ought have been more specific "Not as well"

A measuring system is amoral. I wouldn't try to discredit the US system because the South used it while keeping slaves, nor the metric system because the Nazis used it while they killed millions of people. And neither should you.

That to which I was responding said or implied that the judgement of the English system being "bad", which word was used, was that the rest of the world does not use it and that to do that was a distraction. For the very reasons you bring forth in your last quote

For me, as a psychologist and historian, which I then use to predict. The basis of a measuring system to be used by human beings. ought be graspable in human terms. The inch does that better than the meter, from which youmust work down to get one-hnaded measurments and the gram is at best borderline detectable in human terms. Also the number system by which it works ought make it frangible in as many common fractions without "crumbs' as possible. My donut problem was a real-world scenario. the 60ths system accommodates both and can be doubled to a 120 system. but that's getting steep.

In some ways the English system braks down. particularly with rods and miles; and don't get me going with nautical miles. Then there are furlongs

Edited June 22, 2009 by Space Patroller

[Space Patroller]

BTW regarding coffee, all other considerations aside the most important aspect for making good coffee is to keep the equipment clean. In particualr the cofee pot and whatever you use for brewing (french press, drip, percolator, cone, wahtever). Any coffee bits must be cleaned away after making coffee. Otherwise bitter oils accumulate and will taint your next batch, making the coffee more bitter. If you've let a coffee pot on a hot plate too long, that's what coffee will eventually taste like in dirty equipment.

Correctamundo to the last nanometer!!!

That's why I use a range pot. I can get at every part of it. The Mr. Coffee was great until I had to clean it. I followed the directions to the last micron but there were two problems 1) many parts that came in contact with the coffee were plastic and I could not get at all the parts to clean it. There is another proablem. Coffee, to be at its best should be made at 200. Otherwise it is either undercooked or bitter oils are brewd in. Ther's a significant drop in temperature, to about 180 between the time the water leaves the heater until it hits the grounds. So you may have to set the heater to 210 or better. if you have that option.

[D'kian]

True but I'm a membe of the KISS school: Keep It Simple; Stupid. Your solution to my donute probem adds complications to things involving common fractions. How do I know that each person got exactly 1/3 of the remaing donut over which a quarrel may ensue or that the competion, which I must design around 3 possible strangers may lead to conflict...

Then you wouldn't buy 10 donuts for 9 people. BTW there is no simple way to exactly divide a donut in three ways exactly, but it can be done so with a fair approximation.

I think the decimal system arises from finger counting.

I don't think so. If it were that simple everyone would ahve developed it. As far as I know aside from the current system the only other based on finger counting would be the Mayan, which was a base 20 and thus represents all fingers and toes.

Ayway, the current decimal system isn't only base 10, it also uses exponentional notation, and that can be most easily reckoned on base 10.

I had several 1g weigths in my junior science lab 50 years ago.

So did I. What I mean is that the various agencies that keep standards use a kilogram, not a gram.

For me, as a psychologist and historian, which I then use to predict. The basis of a measuring system to be used by human beings. ought be graspable in human terms. The inch does that better than the meter, from which youmust work down to get one-hnaded measurments and the gram is at best borderline detectable in human terms.

Ok. Back to your point, a very large portion of those who use Metric are illiterate, ignorant people. If it were that hard to grasp without calculation, it wouldn't be used because poeple simply couldn't cope with it. Yet they do.

The reason is that any system, no matter whether it's rational or not, you grow up with is the one you can easily grasp, because you see concrete examples of it every day. That's why changing from Imperial to Metric on a nation-wide basis is so difficult.

[Space Patroller]

Then you wouldn't buy 10 donuts for 9 people.

There's alway one situation that breaks the system. but I'm talking about common fractions that have everyday applications. ONe is more robust

BTW there is no simple way to exactly divide a donut in three ways exactly, but it can be done so with a fair approximation.

Ever deal with a gourp of persnickity 9 year olds backed by their parents?

I don't think so. If it were that simple everyone would ahve developed it. As far as I know aside from the current system the only other based on finger counting would be the Mayan, which was a base 20 and thus represents all fingers and toes.

Well, that's the story as I heard it and it was admittedly conjecture.

Ayway, the current decimal system isn't only base 10, it also uses exponentional notation, and that can be most easily reckoned on base 10.

Any system can be exponetialized. I've been told by persons better at math than I am that the base 12 can do all the things base 10 can.

Ok. Back to your point, a very large portion of those who use Metric are illiterate, ignorant people. If it were that hard to grasp without calculation, it wouldn't be used because poeple simply couldn't cope with it. Yet they do.

Any system can be done monkey-see-monkey-do but to graps it is another matter. It's very good for the very small, and the very large 4 miles or 4 kilometers makes no difference since you're usually driving. It's the in-between things where common fractions play a big part in the day to day doings. US Money is base 100 which allows for 1/4ths but then all or most of the coins are less than 1 basic unit (Dollar the earlierst of which, in Colonial times, were minted in Mexico)

The reason is that any system, no matter whether it's rational or not, you grow up with is the one you can easily grasp, because you see concrete examples of it every day. That's why changing from Imperial to Metric on a nation-wide basis is so difficult.

That's true,

I used to be a huge fan of metric until I started dealing in fractionation, which also made me a fan of duodecmial, which many ipersons well versed in math told me was as easy to use, once grapsed, as base 10, and dealing with car mechanics who cursed out the metric wrenhes and things.

Was metrification ever accomplished without government co-ercion or the like?

[Capitalism Forever]

Of course it is. He's pouring milk into coffee.

Good way to ruin a good cup of coffee, as is using sugar or aspartame.

As far as I'm concerned, milk is optional, but without sugar, there is no way you are going to get me to drink it! There are people who drink coffee, there are people who drink coffee with sugar, and there are people who drink sugar with coffee. I'm definitely the third type!

(And obviously, if you put sugar in it, you're not going to put aspartame in it, so I'm absolutely with you on that one! )

I consider milk, cream, foam, chocolate, caramel, hazelnut, etc. to be interesting additives, and I like to experiment with various combinations of them. I'd appreciate a little elaboration on how this is supposed to make me an "agenda-driven wuss"...

[Capitalism Forever]

Can someone explain why anyone still clings to the Imperial measuring system or any related systems?

Can someone explain why any country still clings to Spanish or any related languages?

Standards are a good thing, but that does not mean there has to be a single worldwide standard language, or measurement system, etc. After all, competition, or at any rate the possibility of competition, is also a good thing.

[D'kian]

Can someone explain why any country still clings to Spanish or any related languages?

If you find out, do tell. Maybe we can do something about it.

Standards are a good thing, but that does not mean there has to be a single worldwide standard language, or measurement system, etc. After all, competition, or at any rate the possibility of competition, is also a good thing.

Using the Imperial and related systems when Metric is available is like using candles after electric light has been invented.

[Maximus]

That would have made sense before the advent of standardized measuring equipment. Today every schoolchild grows up using a 30 cm ruler in class nearly everyday, plus meter rulers in shop classes. Not to mention the 600 ml, 1 liter and 2 liter bottles of water and soda, and moving several kilometers every day. That makes it concrete enough.

Maybe where you live, but not here, outside of science classes. I don't like the metric system, never have. Even though, in the Army, we used meters, I always had to think how far X number of meters was in yards. When you use Yards, I know can visualize the distance with no problem. Same with liters, engine sizes are now designated in liters, but I need to convert it to cubic inches to know what the displacement really is.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Maximus

[D'kian]

Maybe where you live, but not here, outside of science classes.

Because you don't use the Metric system.

Even though, in the Army, we used meters, I always had to think how far X number of meters was in yards.

When I visit America I can get a feel for temperatures in Farenheit after a day or so. If I drive, I can get a feel for miles in about the same time. Yards are easy to convert to meters, just substract 10% and you get a very fair approximation; meters to yards are more difficult. I can also reckon pounds easily (divide by two and you get a rough approximation). What I can't grasp are ounces, pints, gallons, quarts, fluid ounces, etc.

Now, quick without thinking: how many yards in a mile?

[D'kian]

Ever deal with a gourp of persnickity 9 year olds backed by their parents?

Any man who deals with such children more than once is either a masochist or a father. I am neither.

Any system can be exponetialized. I've been told by persons better at math than I am that the base 12 can do all the things base 10 can.

Sure. All numbering systems that use exponentional notation are mathematically equivalent. Any number in decimal can be translated to octal, hexadecimal, bianry or any other number base. Computers do it as a matter of course..

Any system can be done monkey-see-monkey-do but to graps it is another matter. It's very good for the very small, and the very large 4 miles or 4 kilometers makes no difference since you're usually driving.

That's unfairly disparaging. I said you get a feel for amounts in the units you're sued to. This is more of the same.

BTW a distance of 4 km can be walked in about an hour in level city terrain. 4 miles would be too much to easily walk. So there is a diference.

Was metrification ever accomplished without government co-ercion or the like?

I've no ieda. I know Metric got started in France shortly after the Revolution (they also attempted to redefine time, but did not succeed). What I do know is that no country has tried to imopse Imperial systems where Metric exists, and no one ever led a revolt to overthrow the Metric system where it's been adopted.

[Grames]

Now, quick without thinking: how many yards in a mile?

5280

[Maximus]

5280

That's feet. 1760 yards in a mile.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

1760, to be sure.

BTW the longer distances are basically base four in the English system, though it is hard to see today because many of the units have fallen out of use. But if you keep dividing a mile successively by 2, you eventually arrive at 1/8th mile = 220 yards. A 220 yard square is ten acres. (Admittedly a dumb decision--you don't draw a square and say it's ten units because 1 unit then ends up with irrational (endless non-repeating decimals) sized sides. Divide again by two and you have 110 yards which for visualization purposes is 100 meters close enough. In fact 1 mile is approximately 1609 meters which can be rounded to 1600. 100 meters squared is a hectare, 110 yards squared is 2 1/2 acres. By handy coincidence with a little bit of practice metric users can get accustomed (somewhat) to the way land is parcelled out in the Western United States (1 mile square sections, 640 acres, 256 Ha, 1/2 mile square quarter sections, 64 Ha 160 acres, 1/4 mile square quarter quarters, 400 meters on a side, 16 hectares, 40 acres. Of course the metric goes up as base 4.

Metric folk shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with our land.

BTW an American quart is a bit smaller than a liter--off by less than 10 percent. For visualization you can pretty much consider them equivalent. I am wondering when soft drink companies will finally convert the sizes smaller than a liter to metric.

[Capitalism Forever]

Using the Imperial and related systems when Metric is available is like using candles after electric light has been invented.

I think it's more like incandescent bulbs versus fluorescent ones. Some people say the latter are more "efficient" and that automatically makes them superior, but there are many others who are not primarily concerned with this kind of efficiency and continue to prefer the overall "look and feel" of the former. And of course the fact that government coercion has been resorted to on behalf of the latter does not exactly help convince people of their superiority. "If it's better, why do you need force to get me to use it?"

[Capitalism Forever]

BTW, no one has ever used the metric system consistently. Whenever you say

• "High school takes four years" rather than "High school takes 126 megaseconds"
  
• "Make a 90-degree turn" rather than "Make a pi/2 turn"
  
• "My car has a four-liter engine" rather than "My car has a 4000 cubic centimeter engine"
  
• "It's billions of light years away" rather than "It's tens of millions of exameters away"
  
• "The forecast for tomorrow is +30°C" rather than "The forcast for tomorrow is 303.15 kelvins"
  
• "The speed limit is 60 kilometers per hour" rather than "The speed limit is 16 2/3 meters per second"
  

you are departing from the SI standard and making a concession to convenience or tradition!

Edited June 23, 2009 by Capitalism Forever

[D'kian]

BTW, no one has ever used the metric system consistently. Whenever you say

Of course not. That's a well-known fact. Some specialized items are measured in other systems. Nuts and bolts, for example, paint, and other things.

[*]"High school takes four years" rather than "High school takes 126 megaseconds"

There are no Metric units of time. And highschool takes three years where I come from (unless it's two)

[*]"Make a 90-degree turn" rather than "Make a pi/2 turn"

The alternative to degrees are radians. Degrees are a geometric measure anyway, not one of lenght, mass or volume.

[*]"My car has a four-liter engine" rather than "My car has a 4000 cubic centimeter engine"

Liters are the Metric measure of volume, they can be equivalent to cubic centimeters or cubic meters.

[*]"It's billions of light years away" rather than "It's tens of millions of exameters away"

Actually for longer distances one should use parsecs (parsec is short for parallax-second).

[*]"The forecast for tomorrow is +30°C" rather than "The forcast for tomorrow is 303.15 kelvins"

Outside physics Celsius is the Metric unit for temperature.

[*]"The speed limit is 60 kilometers per hour" rather than "The speed limit is 16 2/3 meters per second"

While the meter is the mase unit of lenght, the kilometer is used for long distances and speed. Hours and seconds are not Metric anyway.

But when you ask for a bucket of paint you'll usually get a gallon

[D'kian]

1760, to be sure.

I believe that makes my point.

BTW an American quart is a bit smaller than a liter--off by less than 10 percent. For visualization you can pretty much consider them equivalent. I am wondering when soft drink companies will finally convert the sizes smaller than a liter to metric.

And here I thought a pint was close to a liter....

Actually I don't even try to understand volume in Imperial or US systems. Usually they'll only be relevant when buying drinks (I mean, do I care how big in gallons or liters the shark aquarium is in Mandalay Bay?), and to asses the size of a drink all you need to do is look at the cup, glass or bottle.

[Maximus]

I believe that makes my point.

Which is?

And here I thought a pint was close to a liter....

There are four pints to a quart, four quarts to a gallon. See, based on units of four, as pointed out previously. We divide an hour into quarters too, as in a quarter after or a quarter 'till, or a half past, which is two units of four. Simpler than all that liter/milliliter mess.

You know what I really hate? Working on a car that has standard and metric nuts and bolts. You have to have two sets of sockets and wrenches. Ridiculous. American cars should have SAE standard hardware. Half-ass measures result in unnecessary complications.

[John McVey]

Geez, all this sniping and active chatting and whatnot about things that had nothing to do with the original topic, and generally bouncing off the walls. You guys have been drinking way too much coffee.

JJM

[Maximus]

Yes, nice, strong, black coffee, the way the Flying Spaghetti Monster meant us to drink it, you infidels.

[Maximus]

Double post. How did I do that?

Edited June 23, 2009 by Maximus