Civil Rights and African Americans

[JohnGalt0105]

Hello Fellow Objectivists!

I just finished reading "The Virtue of Selfishness" after reading all of Ayn Rand's novels. I want to start by saying that I absolutely love them, I feel an incredible sense of self-worth and personal strength that I never experienced with any other philosophical system. It's beauty and power is something surpassed only by it's logical prowess and consistency, and I'm glad every day that I discovered this system of thought.

But one thing bothers me: Ayn Rand says that she vehemently opposes racism as a terrible and brutal form of collectivism, but I wonder about this a little bit. Has the African race ever produced any major advancement to civilized society? Why must we think of them as equals if they as a people haven't yet lived up to their potential as rationally self-interested beings?

Just wondering, I don't want to have some disagreement with objectivism, the rest of it is so great and has saved me from the depression I was fast approaching.

-JohnGalt0105

[softwareNerd]

Has the African race ever produced any major advancement to civilized society? Why must we think of them as equals if they as a people...

Well, the Caucasian race has produced nothing of value either. Races as such, produce nothing of value in their role of race. I realize it might be tough to get one's head around this, but the way to do this to look at various achievements and to analyse them to see what made them possible. If one looks at an achiever, one finds a huge number of characteristics. He's a man, me's a Christian, he's straight, he loves steak, and so on. The question is: which -- if any -- of these factors played a role in his achievement? Being born racially Caucasian or racially Asian contributes nothing to a man's potential to achieve (I'm talking about biology here, not culture).

A similar example is the oft-heard claim that the U.S. is a Christian country, based on a Judeo-Christian ethic. This is false. If one actually analyses Western culture, one finds it is a mix. It has Christian elements, and it also has non-Christian elements. When one takes the key ideas that inspired the founding fathers, one finds that they do not stem from Christianity, even if many founders were mixed (like their culture) and called themselves Christians. So, there is a sense in which the country was founded by Christians...these people also were Christians; however, that is not part of the causal chain. So, in a essential sense, the country was founded by men of reason who believed in individualism, not by Christians qua Christians (otherwise the U.S. would have come about centuries earlier, and in Europe).

All our knowledge shows that biology does not contribute to the creation of values (as long as one is within the norm of having typical body parts and a decently functioning brain). Armed with this knowledge, we realize that we should judge each individual as an individual; his race is no more an important part of him than the food he happens to like.

Edited September 6, 2009 by softwareNerd

[PatriotResistance]

Hello Fellow Objectivists!

I just finished reading "The Virtue of Selfishness" after reading all of Ayn Rand's novels. I want to start by saying that I absolutely love them, I feel an incredible sense of self-worth and personal strength that I never experienced with any other philosophical system. It's beauty and power is something surpassed only by it's logical prowess and consistency, and I'm glad every day that I discovered this system of thought.

But one thing bothers me: Ayn Rand says that she vehemently opposes racism as a terrible and brutal form of collectivism, but I wonder about this a little bit. Has the African race ever produced any major advancement to civilized society? Why must we think of them as equals if they as a people haven't yet lived up to their potential as rationally self-interested beings?

Just wondering, I don't want to have some disagreement with objectivism, the rest of it is so great and has saved me from the depression I was fast approaching.

-JohnGalt0105

How you can make such a callous judgment is beyond me. Here, two seconds on google turned up this:

Black Inventors

Black Scientists and Inventors

There's a gazillion more, as if any are needed at all. You want to judge a race of people by the standard of "lived up to their potential as rationally self-interested beings"? And who is going to set that standard? And who is going to make those judgments? They are people for Christ's sake! Is that how you want to live your life, constantly judging who is your equal?

[Jake_Ellison]

But one thing bothers me: Ayn Rand says that she vehemently opposes racism as a terrible and brutal form of collectivism, but I wonder about this a little bit. Has the African race ever produced any major advancement to civilized society? Why must we think of them as equals if they as a people haven't yet lived up to their potential as rationally self-interested beings?

Equals? Who said anything about equals, Ayn Rand didn't think all people were equals.

I am quite convinced that I could list the names of plenty of black individuals who are not your equals, they are, by far, your superiors.

But please, prove me wrong. Write down some of your main achievements, and let's compare them to the achievements of a few of these black individuals you claim haven't lived up to your standards. Prove that you have achieved more than they have, and then you can look down on each and every one of them, and no one could call you an irrational collectivist.

But, as long as that list of your achievements reads something like inventing mechanized flight, writing the works of Beethoven and winning WW2, you are exactly an irrational collectivist, if not an insane person, because you haven't done any of those things, nor have you had any more to do with it than the black kid who grew up in the house next to you, and thinks the achievements of black strangers are something he should be proud of. Why on Earth would you look down on him? What makes you better than him?

[Thales]

The prior posters made some excellent points. I'll just say this ...

Judge people as individuals, because that is what we are. This is how you get the most out of life. I mean, I don't know what your point is anyway. Justice demands that we treat men as individuals based on their own merit.

[Maximus]

Equals? Who said anything about equals, Ayn Rand didn't think all people were equals.

I am quite convinced that I could list the names of plenty of black individuals who are not your equals, they are, by far, your superiors.

But please, prove me wrong. Write down some of your main achievements, and let's compare them to the achievements of a few of these black individuals you claim haven't lived up to your standards. Prove that you have achieved more than they have, and then you can look down on each and every one of them, and no one could call you an irrational collectivist.

But, as long as that list of your achievements reads something like inventing mechanized flight, writing the works of Beethoven and winning WW2, you are exactly an irrational collectivist, if not an insane person, because you haven't done any of those things, nor have you had any more to do with it than the black kid who grew up in the house next to you, and thinks the achievements of black strangers are something he should be proud of. Why on Earth would you look down on him? What makes you better than him?

A little harsh, Jake. This is precisely the type of thing that turns off people to Objectivist forums. The OP may not have had exposure to the achievements of Black people in his education, so your conclusions about his mental state are, I think, a little premature. There is such a thing in human interaction called "tact."

There is an old saying, "You can catch more flies with honey that with vinegar."

[Jake_Ellison]

A little harsh, Jake. This is precisely the type of thing that turns off people to Objectivist forums.

I'm deeply offended by your accusation that my post is turning people off to Objectivist forums. You're going to end up turning me into a commie with your thoughtless comments. How could you possibly expect me to continue making rational choices about what forums I wish to post on, and what philosophy I wish to adhere to, after you hurt my feelings like this?

[DavidOdden]

Has the African race ever produced any major advancement to civilized society?

The question is, really, meaningless, since races don't produce anything, and if you are interested in our contemporary civilized society, those major advancements come from North America and Western Europe, so we can narrow it down quite a lot.

What I'm really curious about is the relationship between the question and the title: whatzzit got to do with rights? Suppose the answer were simply "No"? Then what?

[Maximus]

I'm deeply offended by your accusation that my post is turning people off to Objectivist forums. You're going to end up turning me into a commie with your thoughtless comments. How could you possibly expect me to continue making rational choices about what forums I wish to post on, and what philosophy I wish to adhere to, after you hurt my feelings like this?

I expect you to bear it with dignity, or I shall have to thump you with my Staff-weapon.

[SapereAude]

The most relevent responses to your question, John Galt I think have been answered.

1) As DaveOdden put out.. "races" don't do anything, people do, as individuals.

2) Basic human rights (meaning rights of individual persons, not interest groups) are determined as self evident Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness. One does not earn them through accomplishment, but one can negate them by bad behavior.

Obviously you haven't been much exposed to information about the accomplishments of African Americans or black persons from other countries and cultures.

A couple of my favourite writers are African American Objectivists and you might want to check out some of their columns, available online. Thomas Sowell and Larry Elder. Some of their stuff is available on the Atlasphere the rest you can google their names to find their personal websites with links to articles.

[Maximus]

You can find many of Sowell's articles here: http://www.capmag.com/

[2046]

Since when is Thomas Sowell an Objectivist?

[SapereAude]

You can find many of Sowell's articles here: http://www.capmag.com/

Thanks Maximus, I'm embarrassed to say I haven't seen that site before.

[AlexL]

...Thomas Sowell and Larry Elder.

I'll add, and warmly recommend, Walter Williams, also on http://www.capmag.com, or on his webpage at the George Mason University: http://economics.gmu.edu/wew/articles.html

Sowell is not Objectivist, Williams ... I don't know, probably not.

Alex

Edited September 18, 2009 by AlexL

[Maximus]

Since when is Thomas Sowell an Objectivist?

Since when does it matter? Good sense is good sense and he is generally spot on. If we automatically reject opinion or wisdom because it wasn't an Objectivist who penned it, we would be overlooking the vast majority of our knowledge base from the past 6,000 years or so.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Maximus

[Thales]

I'll add, and warmly recommend, Walter Williams, also on http://www.capmag.com, or on his webpage at the George Mason University: http://economics.gmu.edu/wew/articles.html

Sowell is not Objectivist, Williams ... I don't know, probably not.

Alex

They aren’t Objectivists, nor are they conservatives. They are both brilliant, two of my favorite modern day intellectuals. They are fact driven, rational, insightful, courageous and morally upright. The more I live the more I appreciate how great they really are. Leftists don't seem to produce those kinds of people.

[Maximus]

It's impossible because the Left's philosophy is so flawed it can't produce these kinds of people.

[SapereAude]

Sorry for the assumption regarding Sowell.

Because what I've read from him is generally inline w/Objectivist philosophy, he posts on Objectivist and capitalist websites and speaks admiringly of Ayn Rands works I assumed.

Regardless of what he is or is not affiliated with, the world needs many more like him.

[AlexL]

... [sowell] speaks admiringly of Ayn Rands works...

I didn't know this. Do you have a link?

Alex

[Peripeteia]

Galt0105 - think of acheivements on the basis of the individual, or the group working on a problem, not by a group as vague as race. Stephen Hawking's acheivements do not count as Sarah Palin's simply because they are both white.