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What is the O'ist view on the death penalty?

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You confuse two very different epistemological standards in your post.  It is possible to be 100% certain that a criminal is guilty.  It is not possible for ANY human conclusion to be infallible, since fallibility is part of the nature of reason.

I'm confused by this, can you clarify please? If the conclusion is fallible then surely it isnt 100% certain by definition? Maybe 98-99% certain, but not 100%. If we were 100% certain that someone was guilty, then it wouldn't be possible for him to be proven innocent at a later date. Since this isnt the case in the vast majority of trials (maybe it would be in the odd few where the crime was carried out in public in front of a large number of witnesses), we clearly dont have the 100% certainty which would be required to justify the death penalty.

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Porn is immoral?? That’s the most ridiculous thing I've heard on this forum in a while..

I wonder what you think of these words.

"I want to state, for the record, my own view of what is called 'hard-core' pornography. I regard it as unspeakably disgusting."

--Ayn Rand, The Ayn Rand Letter, Vol. II, No. 23, August 13, 1973.

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"I want to state, for the record, my own view of what is called 'hard-core' pornography. I regard it as unspeakably disgusting."

--Ayn Rand, The Ayn Rand Letter, Vol. II, No. 23,  August 13, 1973.

Is there a context to this? "Hardcore pornography" can mean anything from pictures of erect penises to women having sex with horses.

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I think that now, especially with DNA testing available, that the death penalty is morally sound and can be used effectively as a detterent and punishment of murderous crime.  I am not denying the reality that innocent people have been sent to death row, but I think we can agree that technological advancements make our justice system much more reliable.

I would say that, in the forty-one years since Ayn Rand, through her associate, acknowledged the legal difficulties in applying the death penalty, our justice system has significantly deteriorated, in spite of technological advances. One just need point to the OJ trial as example.

There is no question among Objectivists that the death penalty is morally justifiable, but the legal issue is not so unequivocal about execution. It really is an issue of philosophy of law, where those with more specialized knowledge about law in general, and the state of our legal system in particular, are probably better qualified to ferret out the relevant issues.

Incidentally, I disagree with your mention of the death penalty as a deterrent, especially since it was mentioned prior to punishment. Deterrence is, at best, a peripheral issue, a far, far distance away from the prime purpose -- punishment as justice.

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Is there a context to this? "Hardcore pornography" can mean anything from pictures of erect penises to women having sex with horses.

The context was five (then) recent Supreme Court rulings on obscenity. Before Miss Rand made her point that the Court had no right to make obscenity illegal, she first wanted to make clear her personal estimate of pornography. Pornography, in this case, covered books and films, which she mentions in the next sentence following her remark about pornography being "unspeakably disgusting."

"I regard it as unspeakably disgusting. I have not read any of the books or seen any of the current movies belonging to that category, and I do not intend ever to read or see them."

The books and films were those commonly available at "adult" theaters and "adult" book stores.

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The problem with your post is that you just repeated others opinions that have already been discussed.
I was simply stating my position, and clarifying my understanding of yours.

Go to class?  What school do you go to?

Olympic College

Bremerton, Washington

community colleges offer great night classes

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"I want to state, for the record, my own view of what is called 'hard-core' pornography. I regard it as unspeakably disgusting."

--Ayn Rand, The Ayn Rand Letter, Vol. II, No. 23,  August 13, 1973.

I hate to be on the other side of Ayn Rand, but this is perhaps the only thing I ever disagreed with her about. She was born in 1905 in a culture not too far removed from Victorianism. I am not claiming moral relativism here but just pointing out that IMO in today's culture, adult consenting pornography has valid purposes. Hell, my parents were so religous that if it weren't for porn I would never have known anything about sex.

In the future, in a rational happiness loving culture, people will probably be too busy having fantasy sex lives of their own to be interested in watching other people. But in the culture the way it is with the dark ages always seeimingly looming around the corner with its century's old hatred of sex and pleasure, porn probably is a very healthy phenomenon. If for no other reason then to provide a visual display of sex as an end in itself.

I am sure Ayn Rand would disagree. But I don't think she would throw a kaniption. I mean after all, Dagny and Gault did it on dusty saddle bags in the tunnels of Grand Central Station. Sounds pretty kinky to me, not to mention the fact that it must have been absolutely shocking in the 50's.

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There is no question among Objectivists that the death penalty is morally justifiable, but the legal issue is not so unequivocal about execution. It really is an issue of philosophy of law, where those with more specialized knowledge about law in general, and the state of our legal system in particular, are probably better qualified to ferret out the relevant issues.

This is spot on. I believe the death penalty should be currently applied where there is no question of guilt and no mitigating circumstances (rationally defined). But I hesitate advocating its widespread use in the present legal environment. I would first like to see the cessation of victimless crime prosecution; ie drugs, gambling, prostitution, etc.. Also, I would prefer that the socialist created inner city phenomenon be brought to an end or at least significantly improved. Basically, I would only be comfortable with the death penalty being unleashed if the country were free and the terrible violence and the crime phenemenon, which are artificially created, brought to an end. In the present cultural climate, there exists too much of a margin for error.

So it should be limited for the Ted Bundys of the world. But if a murderer is convicted under the beyond a reasonable doubt standard with a majority of circumstantial evidence and no eye witnesses, In today's culture, I would be satisfied with life imprisonment.

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Argive-in response to your comments about sex and pornography, I suggest you read in AS about the nature of sex. It is also cut out nicely for you in FTNI. Once you have read that, apply it to your belief system.

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Thank you people for using logic and thinking outside the kantian box that has been so well ingrained in all of us. I was worried about this site earlier, but not anymore.

Argive99 your thoughts on pornography make no sense and are irrational (see my response to GC earlier)

I think we have established that the death penalty in the political sense is immoral and completely irrational.

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Argive99 your thoughts on pornography make no sense and are irrational (see my response to GC earlier)

I think we have established that the death penalty in the political sense is immoral and completely irrational.

I am going to try to say this without being nasty because I am sure you and any others on this forum who disagree with me are very nice people. But, to say that porn is 'immoral' or 'irrational' ?!? Come on. You've got to be kidding me.

I have stated this before. I find it amusing that there is such a 'puritanical' streak with Objectivists. Now I know that the return is going to be that anyone who likes porn is betraying their values because sex is such a prime good that it should never be cheapened, etc, etc, etc.. I could write the same argument using the same wording myself. IMO, you are reading Ayn Rand's view of sexuality and taking it way out of context (especially historical and cultural context) and probably making assertions that lie outside the purview of philosophy (with regards to moral condemnation of pornography). I know Rand herself said porn was disgusting. But this was not her view of concept formation. It was a derivitave viewpoint of a woman in her late 60s or 70s. I'm not crying subjectivism here. I'm just pointing out that there are appropriate contexts for porn especially for young people in their 20s.

And culturally, pornography makes complete sense. It is inevitable as a reaction agaisnt a religous anti-sex morality. The more repressive the culture, the more that culture will resort to seeking out sexual fantasies on screen. (With the exception of Arab culture which probably would behead anyone involved with pornography; especially women). If you want proof of this check out any Japanese porn site. (Japanese porn is a phenomenon unto itself.)

And as for your comments about the death penalty, they are completely wrong. The death penalty should be the mandated penalty for intentional homocide. The only reason clear thinking Objectivists argue against its use is because in the current political/legal climate there are dangers resulting from a lack of precision. See any of the many posts on this thread that have made that point.

And lighten up about porn. You'll live longer.

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Ugh disgusting!

Elle you need you study more about the transition from morality to politics.  You clearly have no understanding of it.

And by the way Objectivist, after reading all your previous posts you come across as an obnoxious 12 year old brat. A beligerent, boisterous little shit with absolutely nothing of importance to say.

My apologies to the admins, but it needed to be said.

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And as for your comments about the death penalty, they are completely wrong.
Oh are they now?

The death penalty should be the mandated penalty for intentional homocide

It is the proper punishment. I have said that it is. READ MY POSTS!

"I think we have established that the death penalty IN THE POLITICAL SENSE is immoral and completely irrational.

The only reason clear thinking Objectivists argue against its use is because in the current political/legal climate there are dangers resulting from a lack of precision.
Uh....Yea read my posts. I hold that there will never be any system precise enough to justify the death penalty. Like I have said before, I think the death penalty is moral, but immoral in its POLITICAL IMPLECATIONS. Based on the possibilty of an innocent man being put to death.

My Favorite part:

See any of the many posts on this thread that have made that point.

Uh....yea.....like.......my....ow..n....pos....ts.....?

As for porn, in that whole lenthy post you failed to give one reason why porn is moral.

All you said was, "You've got to be kidding me." And I had never seen the Ayn Rand quote about porn until tonight when posted. How could I have taken it out of context? You keep saying it makes sense, then say "look the japanese have porn" "see it makes sense"

Hogwash

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I go to JCCC in Overland Park Ks.

All my classes are night classes.

Right on, I enjoy night classes a lot because they are longer and don't infringe on my work hours. What classes are you taking?

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Right on, I enjoy night classes a lot because they are longer and don't infringe on my work hours. What classes are you taking?

Same here. I will be taking Calc 1 in the fall, but not sure which other classes I need. I am getting a degree in electrical engineering. What degree are you looking to obtain?

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Same here.  I will be taking Calc 1 in the fall, but not sure which other classes I need.  I am getting a degree in electrical engineering.  What degree are you looking to obtain?

I'm a first year student and I will be starting on the Calculus series in the Fall as well. I'm looking to obtain my Associates in Arts and Sciences with a focus in business, and then transfer to the University of Washington (where transfers basically have to have the AA to get in with the new admissions requirements).

I'm looking at a dual major in Economics and Philosophy, and hopefully either and MBA or law degree after that.

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Uh....Yea read my posts.  I hold that there will never be any system precise enough to justify the death penalty.  Like I have said before, I think the death penalty is moral, but immoral in its POLITICAL IMPLECATIONS. Based on the possibilty of an innocent man being put to death.

This sounds like nothing more than pure skepticism. In a rational legal system with a jury system that functioned on a sound epistemology, there would be no problem gaining precision. I have no idea why you are placing such limitations on man's congnative ablility. And you are essentially the only person arguing your viewpoint and seem completely ignorant of that fact. Are you on drugs?

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As for porn, in that whole lenthy post you failed to give one reason why porn is moral.

All you said was, "You've got to be kidding me." And I had never seen the Ayn Rand quote about porn until tonight when posted.  How could I have taken it out of context?  You keep saying it makes sense, then say "look the japanese have porn" "see it makes sense"

Hogwash

It seems reading comprehension is not one of your strong suits. I gave a number of reasons; porn as a visual demonstration that sex is an end in itself in the context of a culture which has elements of a medieval morality which condemns sexuality, porn as compliment for eroticism for people generally and certainly for the young, porn as a safety valve for a very repressed culture, etc..

As I said, you need to read more carefully. Comprehension is important for an engineer.

And you still argue like a 12 year old little shit.

But I'm through.

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In a rational legal system with a jury system that funtioned on a sound epistemology, there would be no problem gaining precision.

Precision to what degree? Most certainly not absolute 100% of the time! That is what it would take to justify the death penalty. Like I have said to rationalcop, I think anyone who thinks that sacrificing an innocent man's life for the sake of personal comfort or enjoyment or "sense" of security, to be a completely EVIL, irrational, piece of (substitute 4 letter word for) garbage!

!

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I know this was addressed to nimble, but no I would not support the death penalty for him.  Are you crazy?  His case is an extreme one, but the logic remains unchanged.  Use logic from supported premises and you will find the answer.  That is what Ayn Rand was all about.

If Osama was fighting and trying to kill those attempting to capture him then yes in that instance he deserves to be killed.  But if he comes quietly then no, of course not.

icon_retard.gif

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