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The Only Two Things The Majority of Women Want.

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[i posted this in another non-Objectivist forum and got alot of heat for it. Note that I say average and majority, that doesn't mean every single woman in this world. Also, I live in a city in Louisiana, which is part of the South and Bible Belt, this may have had an effect on my observations, but I've noticed the same things in other places in the world. One window to see that is on the T.V. and Internet. Also, the premise that lead me to this conclusion is that the majority of people, and women are people, accept altruism as morally valid. This is why I thought Objectivists would understand this better. Think about what Roark said about selfless people -- they live in the eyes of others.]

This is what my observations of the opposite sex have lead me to conclude...

The average woman and i'd guess, the majority of women as well, only want two general things in a partner.

1) He has to be physically attractive.

2) He has to be socially acceptable/accepted.

That's about it. Confidence, charm, a good sense of humour, or whatever don't really mean anything. It's only about these two traits. Everything else fits into them.

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hmmm, yeah. I'm with CF. Hasty generalization...

I could make similar generalizations if I took the lowest common denominator of the male sex as well.

Edited by KendallJ
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Well I can't really speak for all women because I'm a little tom-boyish (have been since childhood), but personally, I like a good sense of humor, well-groomed, well-mannered, decent-looking fellow. I don't think a man necessarily has to be good looking, as long as he's fixing himself up well. (And I think that goes for women too. I've seen average or unattractive women put on the right outfit and a bit of make up and turn into something beautiful.) For example, my husband shaves his head rather than doing a comb-over to cover his baldness. No woman likes the Trump look. (Sorry if I'm offending anyone, but please take it as constructive criticism.) Basically, look clean and neat and have some fun.

I think the longer you know someone and like thier personality, the better looking they become. I think Dagny Taggart is a great example of this (and why I cannot see Angelina Jolie playing her in the film.) In the beginning of AS, Dagny seemed thin with sharp features and not particularly attractive to me, but by the end of the book, she was a goddess. (Or is it just me?) Not that this could happen for obvious reasons, but I thought a young Katharine Hepburn would have played her well. Katharine was not a traditional beauty, thin with sharp features and firey red hair, but the longer you watched her, the more beautiful and elegant she became. I've noticed this with friends too...the longer I know someone, especially if they share my values, the more attractive they become to me. The opposite is also true. I've known some drop-dead gorgeous people, yet after I've known them for awhile and realize I don't particularly like them, they seem less and less physically attractive. Weird.

I think you're on to something with women wanting their men to be socially acceptable though. When/if my husband embarasses me in public, I find it personally humiliating. I wonder why that is? Perhaps I hold him to a higher standard than other people in general? Perhaps I look at him as a reflection of me? We chose each other, after all, so is it not a reflection on each of us the way the other acts in public?

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I think you're on to something with women wanting their men to be socially acceptable though. When/if my husband embarasses me in public, I find it personally humiliating. I wonder why that is? Perhaps I hold him to a higher standard than other people in general? Perhaps I look at him as a reflection of me? We chose each other, after all, so is it not a reflection on each of us the way the other acts in public?

Great post K-Mac. Thanks for the perspective. I wonder on this point however if I understand you correctly. What exactly do you mean by "embarrasses me"? Does this mean that he does something that you would find socially unacceptable (say slurping his soup or picking his nose). Or does it mean that he makes some sort of crass gesture that is specifically aimed at you (such as a rude taunt), i.e. are you the object of embarrassment?

I find complaints about the former really tiring(:)), but the latter seems a gross violation of trust, and what should be admiration for each other, so resentment would be justified.

I agree that no one probably wants a caveman or cavewoman out in public though.

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Yeesh. I know what I want and I can provide excellent reasons for it.

1. Physically "attractive": this is strictly icing. Most of the men I've ever seen are average to good-looking unless they've really let themselves go.

2. Socially acceptable: I'm not socially acceptable in most circles. I enjoy a certain amount of socializing so I prefer a guy that is comfortable spending time with the people I spend time with. He doesn't have to love them, he just has to be able to have a reasonable conversation with: My Dad and my Gaming Group. Oh, and expressing the opinion: "Gawd, those people are a bunch of freaks!" afterwards is a no-go.

3. Love: Any woman at any age wants to be loved. Supposedly men do as well. I suspect this means something along the lines of "they want lots of flowers and cuddle time and calling each other stupid pet names etc." These are simply methods of expressing affection, not love.

4. Financial security: Yep, although I don't care if the guy in question is wealthy. I want two financial things out of a guy: he must pay his own way, and he must have ambition. I am also a little picky in that I don't like crazy ambition. If the words "I'm going to start an Objectivist Nation on a secret island . . ." come out of your mouth we are done. I like people that live in the real world, namely ones that say things like "I'm going to write a paper on X topic this month and keep blogging and I'm working on expanding my business."

Now that I've dispensed with the trite, overused claims, I'll tell you one that is specific to me:

5. Must LISTEN TO ME. This doesn't mean that he sits patiently with a glassy-eyed stare while I'm telling him about my day. This does not mean he tells me how to fix my "problems". It means that he thinks I say interesting things, listens until I'm finished talking, and then maybe offers up his own experiences in the same area. This demonstrates that a.) he understood what I was saying, and b.) he sees how my thinking applies to real life.

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I'm not going to lie, looks are somewhat important to me. I'm not too harsh of a critic though. This means that his teeth can't look like they will give me a disease when I kiss him, his hair cannot be greasy, no disgusting skin conditions, and he can't be severely obese. Other than that I don't really care what a guy looks like.

There are a few criteria that I judge on:

1)Intelligence. MY ideal guy would be incredibly intelligent, or at least equal to my intelligence.

2)Ambition. Hes gotta want better for himself than rent and a girl to sleep with.

3)Looks.

If a guy is extremely good looking, I might compromise on either the ambition and intelligence. Likewise if hes ambitious and intelligent, I would be willing to compromise on looks. But a guys gotta have at least two of the three to be considered in my date book. Note: these are not the only things I want, but the most basic ones.

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I've suspected this for some time now. Less aches and pains when you're 20-something, though. :)

You wanna go? Don't make me throw down the gauntlet. :P

Just remember, the most competitive triathlon bracket is not 30-39 for nuthin'. Yes, more aches and pains, but more wisdom, ability to focus on long term goals, and the aches just make us more pain tolerant.

Honestly, though, I just had a 39th birthday (while I was in Asia) and my Chinese colleague gave me a saying that is popular in China among men our age. "40 in age, 30 in body, 20 in soul." I feel wiser, my body hurts a little more, but I really don't "feel" a day over 25. "35" is really the new "25". By the time you're my age, "45" will be the new "25", if medical science has anything to say about it.

Edited by KendallJ
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Supposedly men do as well.

Yeah, I can vouch for that.

5. Must LISTEN TO ME. This doesn't mean that he sits patiently with a glassy-eyed stare while I'm telling him about my day. This does not mean he tells me how to fix my "problems". It means that he thinks I say interesting things, listens until I'm finished talking, and then maybe offers up his own experiences in the same area. This demonstrates that a.) he understood what I was saying, and b.) he sees how my thinking applies to real life.

I don't think this is really that specific to you Jen. This is sort of fundamental to the concept of visibility in a relationship.

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4. Financial security: Yep, although I don't care if the guy in question is wealthy. I want two financial things out of a guy: he must pay his own way, and he must have ambition. I am also a little picky in that I don't like crazy ambition. If the words "I'm going to start an Objectivist Nation on a secret island . . ." come out of your mouth we are done.

But my sweet honey-pie! I was going to dedicate the island to you! Megan island! We would sit together on the plain grass, watching the stars flicker. It would be our home, our land.

My sweet dear, let me take you away from this place, so that we may live forever happy upon the bountiful lands of Megan Island!

(Chatroom humour)

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Who cares about the majority? Tell me what good women want. :P:)

Exactly! Most people believe and act on all kinds of horrible ideas. Romance could not possibly be an exception, since it depends so much on the rest of one's ideas. Unless you are commenting on the horribleness of most people, then I don't really see what your point is. If this is meant as advice for men, then it is poor advice. If that is all a particular woman is interested in, then why in hell would any man of self-esteem be interested in her?

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Yeah, life starts at 35. Didn't you get the notice?

I don't know. I've never gone after or hung out with any women older than 35. Virtually every single woman I know older than 35 that is at all desirable has already married or are in some sort of a relationship.

In any case for someone who wants children, when I see a woman over 35 they are basically on the verge of their biological expiration date. It would take some major value-matching mojo for me to consider them as potential partners.

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"35" is the new "25".

I think this applies better to men than it does to women. At 35 a man is more prone to being stable and financially secure, hence making him more desirable to a lot of women. Women? Well at 35 they are just on the verge of being old.

Hollywood has a way of producing extremely attractive 40 year old women. But those kind of woman virtually does not exist in daily life -- probably because the amount of work, discipline, medical procedures, and money required to maintain that youth.

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What exactly do you mean by "embarrasses me"? Does this mean that he does something that you would find socially unacceptable (say slurping his soup or picking his nose). Or does it mean that he makes some sort of crass gesture that is specifically aimed at you (such as a rude taunt), i.e. are you the object of embarrassment?

I find complaints about the former really tiring(:P), but the latter seems a gross violation of trust, and what should be admiration for each other, so resentment would be justified.

I agree that no one probably wants a caveman or cave woman out in public though.

Usually it's the former that you find "really tiring." :P We don't intentionally try to embarrass each other in public, but my husband and I are definitely a case of opposites attract. I come from a very loving, stable home where I was taught manners, etc., while my husband came from a very broken home where it was each man for himself. (His father was on his third marriage when he died, mom is on number four and sister, who is only a year younger than my hubby, is on number three. Just looking at that data, I'm amazed Danny has been able to stick it out with me for fourteen years!) Anyway, my point is that I literally sometimes have to teach or remind him (in private, of course) how to react in social situations. Not that I'm a big, formal, snob or anything, but I want other people to like him and be as proud of him as I am, so I want him to act in an appropriate manner. And I must give a shout out to our country's dear old Army. Had it not been for Danny's military experience, I shudder to think what may have become of his life. The structure and training they provided went a long way to helping him with many aspects of his life...aspects his parents certainly didn't prepare him for during his rough childhood. In his parents defense, they were very young when they got into trouble and were just kids when they had Danny. I think they are good people at heart who just chose a very difficult path in life that led to on-going, life-long problems which they never sought to resolve. (I'm convinced that his mom and sister believe that their lives are insignificant unless they're married to a controlling man. Yikes!) I occasionally have a caveman in public, but oh well, I love him and deal with it. :)

Edited by K-Mac
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I want other people to like him and be as proud of him as I am, so I want him to act in an appropriate manner.

First of K-Mac, that was a beatiful story. You two sound like you're very happy, and you love him a lot.

So it is the former! :P

Based upon what you said, can you explain this particular statement to me? I guess my first two questions would be, where you do think that desire to have him be respected by others comes from? and what does he want of others? I can think of good places for that want and not so good ones, so I'm curious just what your perspective is. (if you don't mind my prying... :) )

Initially it struck me as contradictory, depending on how you handle it, and what his motivations were for doing it. Certainly wanting to share your pride on him as opposed to seeing his rough exterior as a reflection on you is a positive thing.

My own perspective in such a hypothetical case would be that I chose the package I chose, recognizing some of the difficulties we might have in social situations. If she were to recognize that her exterior is offputting to some and wanted to change then I would help her, but I would be really conflicted about asking her to behave more "appropriately" so "others could see her better." If others can't see her for who she is, and she does not care about being seen by them, then neither do I. I would consider my pride and admiration to her entirely complete in the way I express it to her directly with nothing extra in a need to share it with others. But that is just my perspective. Maybe it is incorrect, or maybe it is distinctly "male". Just wondering...

Personally, having experienced it, I find that there is only one time when I want to do such a thing. When a. when I know that she does love me to death :P and b. when I know that her desire to have others see me comes from a genuine benevolent desire to share the best of us with people she cares about, and c. (probably most important) if it made her genuinely happy (not approval, but actual, genuine, visible, happiness).

I find most good men will willingly brave shark invested waters to bring their woman a glass of lemonade, if they know it will make her genuinely, visibly happy.

Edited by KendallJ
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Based upon what you said, can you explain this particular statement to me? I guess my first two questions would be, where you do think that desire to have him be respected by others comes from? and what does he want of others? I can think of good places for that want and not so good ones, so I'm curious just what your perspective is. (if you don't mind my prying... ;) )

Hmmm, now you're trying to get me to think really hard, huh? :)

I think that Danny is a great person...very smart, full of integrity, fun to be around, etc. I want people, particularly those meeting him for the first time, to see all the good stuff and judge him based on that, not his "rough exterior." Be it right or wrong, our society places a lot of value on first impressions and outward appearances and I just want Danny to be prepared for that. He seems to appreciate the help I've given him and he tells me it gives him better confidence in job interviews, etc.

To specifically answer your questions...(1) "where you do think that desire to have him be respected by others comes from?" and (2) "what does he want of others?"

(1) It's probably selfish reasons more than anything. (I'm not sure if that's good or bad in this situation, but it's the truth.) I think my husband, the spouse I chose, is a reflection of myself and my values, and I want my choices to be respected. I also enjoy seeing the fruits of OUR labor. I give him a few tips or some advice, he implements it and by doing so, I feel a sense of accomplishment while he enjoys a boost in his confidence. (Is this making me sound like a psycho with a pet project?) ;)

(2) Good question. Maybe I should ask him that specifically sometime? I assume that he wants to be respected, accepted and liked by others, but I've never really asked him that in general. He's very proud of himself when he handles a social situation successfully...like a conflict with a friend or coworker or a job interview he was really nervous about, so I assume he wants what most of us want, acceptance and respect.

Maybe acceptance isn't the right word. I don't like that the word acceptance makes it sound as though I will sacrifice individuality and values just to be accepted, because I won't. At the same time, I do believe humans are pack animals and it doesn't feel natural for us to live in isolation from our "pack." I guess in using the word acceptance, I mean accepted by your peers. Accepted by those you want acceptance from because you feel you have something in common, or something to that effect. Am I making sense here? I think I'm thinking too much. Is that possible? :P

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