redmartian89 Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Possible Future Ad: Forget running your car on gas. Buy an air car instead. Only $15,000. http://www.mdi.lu/eng/affiche_eng.php?page=accueil Although made primarily in Nice, France, there is a company in the US selling them. http://www.zevcat.com Competitively priced with conventional cars, incredibly cheap to recharge (~3 cents per charge), and no pollution. Would any of you buy it? Or perhaps sell it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidV Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 The website claims 120-190 miles per charge, but I'm skeptical this can be achieved. The website also states that the "fuel" is stored at over 4,000 PSI. Can you image what would happen if the fuel tank failed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert J. Kolker Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 (edited) The website claims 120-190 miles per charge, but I'm skeptical this can be achieved. The website also states that the "fuel" is stored at over 4,000 PSI. Can you image what would happen if the fuel tank failed? What is the cost of compressing the air using some kind of electrical pump the power of which is derived mostly from hydro-carbon fuel? Compressed air is NOT an energy source. It is a way of storing energy. How efficient a way is it? When I was a kid I made airplanes (they actually flew!) run on the energy stored in twisted rubber bands. I am sure one could build a rubber band energized car, but I don't think it would be very useful. There is a good reason we use petroleum based fuel to run our cars. The ratio of chemically available energy to mass is high. Even at 15 percent thermodynamic efficiency it is better than anything else we have at the moment. It will be difficult to achieve this kind of energy compactness by other means, but we should keep on trying. Bob Kolker Edited October 8, 2007 by Robert J. Kolker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gags Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 The website also states that the "fuel" is stored at over 4,000 PSI. Can you image what would happen if the fuel tank failed? In the sport of Paintball, people run around, dive and slide on the ground holding air tanks that are attached to their guns. Those tanks contain up to 5,000 psi of compressed air and there are rarely if ever any injuries from these tanks. The only injuries I have ever heard of are the result of deliberate misuse of the tank. The compressed air tanks are about the size of a football and they are built of aluminum wrapped in fiberglass, making them pretty light and easy to carry around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert J. Kolker Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 In the sport of Paintball, people run around, dive and slide on the ground holding air tanks that are attached to their guns. Those tanks contain up to 5,000 psi of compressed air and there are rarely if ever any injuries from these tanks. The only injuries I have ever heard of are the result of deliberate misuse of the tank. The compressed air tanks are about the size of a football and they are built of aluminum wrapped in fiberglass, making them pretty light and easy to carry around. In Paintball the idea is to shoot a few ounces of glop a short distance. Automobiles, even those made of lightweight material will weigh about a ton and have to absorb a great deal of shaking, rattling, abuse and accident potential. And automobiles have to do what they do -safely-. Bob Kolker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gags Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 I too tend to doubt the viability of this technology. However, my comment was directed at the issue of the safety of placing a compressed air tank in a vehicle. I doubt that it would be any less safe than riding around in a vehicle containing a tank filled with flamable liquid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert J. Kolker Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 I too tend to doubt the viability of this technology. However, my comment was directed at the issue of the safety of placing a compressed air tank in a vehicle. I doubt that it would be any less safe than riding around in a vehicle containing a tank filled with flamable liquid. How susceptible to leakage would the air-car storage tank be? It is easier to make a gasoline tank self sealing than a high pressure air tank leak proof. I am skeptical of the idea on both technological and economic grounds. PS. I am not an employee, owner in or a representative any company that makes or distributes hydro carbon fuels. My skepticism may be mistaken, but it is honestly motivated. Bob Kolker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gags Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 I don't really know about the possibility of air leakage - I'm no engineer. The earlier point you made about the pressurized air simply being a means of storing energy makes sense to me. I'd be surprised if it turned out that compressed air was a particularly efficient means of storing up and then releasing energy. One would think that they'd at least put a couple of videos on the website to demonstrate the technology to those of us who are curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmartian89 Posted October 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 here is the first video of it that I saw (from Beyond Tomorrow): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqpGZv0YT4 here is how the engine works: I should highlight that the air car can run on petroleum for longer distances (as mentioned in the videos). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidV Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 What is the cost of compressing the air using some kind of electrical pump the power of which is derived mostly from hydro-carbon fuel? Compressed air is NOT an energy source. It is a way of storing energy. How efficient a way is it? This is actually the one area where energy-store fuel sources excel. Electric power is much cheaper during off-peak hours, so you could save money by charging the car at night. You could also save that energy in a flywheel, which I find more intriguing than compressed air or hydrogen. Despite the fact that flywheels can hold an enormous amount of energy, they can be designed to fail in a controlled manner, so they don't take out a building when they fail, as scuba tanks have been known to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D'Ippolito Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Compressed air (delivered from a large tank through a hose) is used to operate many tools, particularly in mechanic's shops, but also to drive nail guns. In essence it allows you to apply a LOT of force or power very quickly for brief periods of time, working off a "battery" (the air tank) which the compressor then recharges. You can thereby use a 1 or 2 horsepower motor to do work that requires a LOT more horsepower for the brief instances where it is actually being done (like pushing a nail in with one blow). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'kian Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 There are a lot of compressed gas tanks out in the world these days. From the gigantic LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas) ships, to gas delivery trucks (mostly in 3rd world countries, I suppose), scuba tanks, compressed air for tools, etc. I don't recall hearin many news stories of disaster due to failure of such tanks. Minor failuires, such as pinhole leaks or even small punctures, probably wouldn't be serious. Contrary to popular belief, metal tanks don't pop like balloons when pricked. Air would escape at high speed for a few seconds or minutes until the pressure dropped to atmospheric levels. the larger the tank, the less serious a small leak is (the air molecules themselves crowd around the leak, providing a very temporary quasi-seal that slows down the speed of the escaping air). Catastrophic failure is something else. We know that various cycles of compression and decompression cause metal fatigue. That can cause a large tear in the tank, and that could cause an explosive decompression. It migt be like a bomb going off, minus the heat and flames. But tank shrapnel, and possibly car shrapnel, flying around can easily kill. There are ways to prevent it. The tanks would need to be checked for cracks, the same ways jet aircraft are today (and presumably other kinds of compressed gas tanks are also). These days you don't worry about your gas tank because it's not pressurizes, so it doesn't experience fatigue. It's rust-proofed (galvanized), too, so you don't worry about metal decay. And the way gas smells even a small leak would be readily apparent. Short of a high-speed crash the only worry about the tank is the gas level. I don't think we'll see compressed air cars in large numbers. What I think we'll see within the next two decades are hydrogen fuel cell cars. Hydrogen will likely be stored as a high pressure gas, liquefied at high pressure, or in metal hydride "sponges" at lower pressures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert J. Kolker Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 This is actually the one area where energy-store fuel sources excel. Electric power is much cheaper during off-peak hours, so you could save money by charging the car at night. You could also save that energy in a flywheel, which I find more intriguing than compressed air or hydrogen. Despite the fact that flywheels can hold an enormous amount of energy, they can be designed to fail in a controlled manner, so they don't take out a building when they fail, as scuba tanks have been known to. If we ever use flywheels they will have to come in counter-rotating pairs. The gyroscopic effect of a rapidly spinning flywheel on a car turning a corner and leaning or taking a banked turn could be ...um... interesting. The precession of gyros is fascinating. Bob Kolker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McVey Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 The gyroscopic effect of a rapidly spinning flywheel on a car turning a corner and leaning or taking a banked turn could be ...um... interesting. Think of it as pilot training for Sopwith Camels JJM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert J. Kolker Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 Think of it as pilot training for Sopwith Camels JJM Between fighting the gyro effect of the -entire- engine spinning and breathing in fumes of castor oil used as a lubricant, the pilots literally shat in their pants. Bob Kolker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-archimedes- Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) This is actually the one area where energy-store fuel sources excel. Electric power is much cheaper during off-peak hours, so you could save money by charging the car at night. You could also save that energy in a flywheel, which I find more intriguing than compressed air or hydrogen. Despite the fact that flywheels can hold an enormous amount of energy, they can be designed to fail in a controlled manner, so they don't take out a building when they fail, as scuba tanks have been known to. Interesting...what all that suggests is that an air tank's charge be depleted before storage/that tanks not be stored "charged", and should only be charged when intended for immediate use, in addition to the routine inspections. Not storing a "charged" tank makes an immense amount of sense/is the only a logical safeguard in that the charged air would be subjected to varying degrees of climatic change through atmospheric pressure and temperature gradients from routine day to night to day phasing, causing numerous intervals of expansion and contraction of the stored CO2/air. While this may pose some degree of inconvenience for the owners, be it of an air tank or one of the air driven autos, i.e., having to completely discharge and recharge the tank after every use (posing more so of an issue of actual real world practicality for this type of technology), it would be the most prudent course of action, one that would/should require enforcement, though gags does an excellent job of providing an analogy demonstrative of the efficacy and safety of one possibility for high psi "fuel" storage, i.e., a "paint ball" guns' charge tank (duly noted). Edited October 12, 2007 by -archimedes- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-archimedes- Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) With all of that said, I'll have to admit that I originally wondered in to this thread with the expectation of finding a discussion on the "Moller Sky Car"; http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/...=7&cxcat=2/, I'm leaning more so towards the ever evolving electric powered vehicle industry, e.g., http://www.teslamotors.com/ ...or... http://www.eliica.com/, I really like the idea of sportiness combined with performance combined with practicality combined with zero emissions. Edited October 12, 2007 by -archimedes- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmartian89 Posted October 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 With all of that said, I'll have to admit that I originally wondered in to this thread with the expectation of finding a discussion on the "Moller Sky Car"; http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/...=7&cxcat=2/, I'm leaning more so towards the ever evolving electric powered vehicle industry, e.g., http://www.teslamotors.com/ ...or... http://www.eliica.com/, I really like the idea of sportiness combined with performance combined with practicality combined with zero emissions. If I had $100k, I would get the Tesla in a heart beat. That is one good-looking car. It would probably be more popular then the Air Car, due to the sporty look and speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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