Mr. Flip Flop

[argive99]

Here is a link to a Republican made video of amazing television footage of Kerry's opinions on Iraq for over a decade. This is visual evidence of his complete and total pragmatism. I don't think I could ever pull the lever for him. I'm starting to think Peikoff is wrong.

http://www.kerryoniraq.com/

click on the link to watch the video.

[Pericles(MBA)]

Thanks for posting that link.

While many of us disagree with Dr Peikoff about John Kerry and Pres Bush, his comments are worthy of noting. If Bush does win re-election then the Objectivists will need to watch for the influences that religion may attempt to exercise over his presidency.

On a second note, of the other type of people (Michael Moore fans) that are likely to vote for Kerry, I came up with a method to help them better realize their error:

Since Moore fans often do not think of politics in a serious way, I would suggest asking them to write their answers to the following questions:

How do you think John Kerry will benefit you specifically? What policies do you expect him to implement and how will that positively affect you?

What will Kerry do that will be different from what Bush or Clinton did before him that would warrant a change of administrations?

How much do you know of John Kerry's voting record? Based on his voting record who do you think he will nominate to replace Pres Bush's current cabinet? What do you expect their policies will be? How will that impact you?

Most likely if they don't really think about politics at all, this will stop them in their tracks.

If they at least attempt to answer the first question, they will have written documentation they can refer to later when they decide to vote Kerry out of office in 4 years from now.

If we can get enough liberals to document their thinking errors it is the start of helping them to correct them.

[Betsy]

Since Moore fans often do not think of politics in a serious way, I would suggest asking them to write their answers to the following questions:

I'll answer as I think a Michael Moore fan (MMF) will answer.

How do you think John Kerry will benefit you specifically?

MMF: I hate Bush and Kerry will replace Bush as President.

What policies do you expect him to implement and how will that positively affect you?

MMF: I hate America and Kerry will not lift a finger to defend it.

What will Kerry do that will be different from what Bush or Clinton did before him that would warrant a change of administrations?

MMF: I want socialism and Kerry will advocate and fight for more government control of the economy than Bush ever would.

How much do you know of John Kerry's voting record?

MMF: He votes against defense and for socialism.

Based on his voting record who do you think he will nominate to replace Pres Bush's current cabinet?

MMF: Ted Kennedy, Al Sharpton, Dennis Kucinich, Ramsay Clark, Ralph Nader, Michael Moore ...

What do you expect their policies will be? 

MMF: Socialistic, multicultural, pacifist, and environmental.

How will that impact you?

MMF: That's what I WANT!

Most likely if they don't really think about politics at all, this will stop them in their tracks.

I DON'T think so.

[AshRyan]

Honestly, Betsy, for someone who's usually so optimistic and gives the benefit of the doubt to common American people, your last post was rather surprising to me. Do you honestly think that most Michael Moore fans would say the things you are ascribing to them, or even somewhat believe them implicitly?

I can be pretty damn cynical, but I'm not cynical enough to believe that that many millions of Americans actually hate America.

[AwakeAndFree]

I really can't say about America - but many in the left here in Israel truly hate Israel.

[Betsy]

Honestly, Betsy, for someone who's usually so optimistic and gives the benefit of the doubt to common American people, your last post was rather surprising to me.  Do you honestly think that most Michael Moore fans would say the things you are ascribing to them, or even somewhat believe them implicitly?

Absolutely!

Real Michael Moore fans are an extremely corrupt lot. They are concentrated in the "blue states" and are college professors in the humanities, the old Media Elite on the TV networks and metropolitan newspapers, the New Left, and the unthinking losers who follow them. They are the great grandchildren of Immanuel Kant and are totally divorced from reality.

If you think I am exaggerating, listen to the Left-Wing talk radio hosts and their supporters. Choose any random archived San Francisco Talk Radio show hosted by Bernie Ward (click here) or Ray Taliaferro (click here). I am not making this up.

The bad news is they are totally fact and value-proof and there is no way to convince them.

The good news is that such creatures are a distinct minority and the vast majority of Americans are decent and reachable by reason.

[y_feldblum]

MMF: Ted Kennedy, Al Sharpton, Dennis Kucinich, Ramsay Clark, Ralph Nader, Michael Moore ...

You mentioned Michael Moore less than twice.... Remember, since you're trying to put yourself in a fan's mindset, so Moore gets mentioned first, last, once between every other name, and another four or five times for good measure.

By the way, do you know if he's one of the devil's minions leveling a lawsuit against McDonand's? If he isn't, then, as a liberal college professor fan, you might mention to him that he could stand to make a lot of money in damages.

[Areactor]

Betsy is 100% correct. Every Michael Moore fan repeats the same damn things.

1. The Iraq war was waged for oil.

2. Bush is stupid.

3. Bush is a tyrant.

4. Canada and the Netherlands are much better then the U.S.

5. Everyone hates the U.S.

6. I hate America too. *And no, I'm not being outrageous.

[Pericles(MBA)]

Betsy is 100% correct. Every Michael Moore fan repeats the same damn things.

They must all listen to this music too

http://www.supermegacorporation.com/html/music.html

Thanks for the points Betsy.

[MisterSwig]

I can be pretty damn cynical, but I'm not cynical enough to believe that that many millions of Americans actually hate America.

I believe that the hardcore Liberals hate America. How many millions there are, I'm not sure.

However, I also believe that the hardcore Conservatives hate HUMAN LIFE!!! As a bit of evidence, I provide the success of the movie The Passion.

What is worse: hating America or hating Life?

[argive99]

Absolutely! 

Real Michael Moore fans are an extremely corrupt lot.  They are concentrated in the "blue states" and are college professors in the humanities, the old Media Elite on the TV networks and metropolitan newspapers, the New Left, and the unthinking losers who follow them.  They are the great grandchildren of Immanuel Kant and are totally divorced from reality.

I agree with Betsy. There are many Americans who hate America. I wish I could understand the psychology of how someone could hate the source of their own peace and prosperity, but for the life of me I can not. I have seen three movies in the last week that have had the hatred of America as a pronouned if non-explicit theme: 'Hidalgo', 'The Last Samarai', and 'The Manchurian Candidate'.

I'm led to ask did the Romans of the 3rd and 4th centuries a.d. hate their culture as much as many Americans today hate ours? How long can America survive when so many of its citizens despise it so?

There was a line in the movie 'The Last Samarai' by the movie's villian who asks Tom Cruise's character (who abandon's his his own culture, ie western civilization, for the fuedal Samarai culture) "how can you hate your own people so much?" Its a great question. It captures the essence of much of the citizenry.

[y_feldblum]

did the Romans of the 3rd and 4th centuries a.d. hate their culture as much as many Americans today hate ours?

Cicero. But in a very different way. He protested the republic's descent into tyranny.

[Capitalism Forever]

What is worse: hating America or hating Life?

False dichotomy. America stands for Life.

[Betsy]

False dichotomy. America stands for Life.

Exactly.

Just like the Islamicists, the American America haters resent America and Americans because they love life and hate them for their VIRTUES and VALUES.

Here's Michael Moore on Americans:

''That's why we're smiling all the time,'' Moore told a rapturous throng in Munich. ''You can see us coming down the street. You know, 'Hey! Hi! How's it going?' We've got that big [expletive] grin on our face all the time because our brains aren't loaded down.''

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1160673/posts

To hate people because they are happy reveals the speakers enormous personal corruption. Shades of Ellsworth Toohey and Johnny Stokes!

But don't worry. There may be millions of them, but they are no real threat. Those people are incredible losers who depend on the virtues of much better men to even survive. A rational man can knock them over with a well-placed argument or even a little ridicule. The only reason they are still around is that we haven't done so yet. Also, ignoring them and pursuing values is usually a much better use of our time.

[Elle]

I can be pretty damn cynical, but I'm not cynical enough to believe that that many millions of Americans actually hate America.

What other explanation is there for their active destruction of everything that makes America great?

Millions of Americans are religious fundamentalists, welfare-mongers, medicare/medicade supporters, environmentalists, etc. It's not cynical to know what/who you are fighting. What we are fighting are millions of Americans who don't know why they are living to die, instead of dying to live... and even worse, many don't even care and become mindless murderers of human intelligence in the forms of Liberals (Michael Moore), Conservatives (George Bush), and pragmatic fence straddlers (John Kerry).

To tie this in with Dr.Peikoff's assessment of the 2004 election, I would say that we are better off with a pragmatic fence straddler who no one can truly follow (because he has no solid platform to stand on) versus a dogmatic fundamentalist (George W.) with an ENORMOUS evangelical following that exists in America right now in favor of "faith based initiatives". Defeating a John Kerry is a lot easier, and will take a lot less effort, than defeating an Army of Fools following after Bush.

[BlackSabbath]

I really can't say about America - but many in the left here in Israel truly hate Israel.

The left here in Britain hate America and Israel. The pro-euro left hate Britain as well.

I'd happily bet £1 million that Michael Moore fans hate America. Betsy is correct.

[y_feldblum]

I don't understand all this uproar about Bush's faith-based initiative.

Sure, it's wrong, just like every other government Robin Hood program. Sure, it's wrong, just like every other kind of pandering to special interests.

But that's not why many people condemn him for it. They condemn the program because it involves giving money to organizations whether or not they profess religious belief. But the government gives welfare money to Christians! Valid criticism of welfare money to Cristians is that it is welfare money to Christian.

Government giving people money is the problem. Ignoring whether they are religious is not.

[pvtmorriscsa]

Sure, it's wrong, just like every other government Robin Hood program.  Sure, it's wrong, just like every other kind of pandering to special interests.

This is off topic, but I think you misunderstand the story of Robin Hood. Many people are under the false impression that he "robbed from the rich and gave to the poor"

In fact Robin Hood robbed the tax collector and gave the people their money back.

[MisterSwig]

False dichotomy. America stands for Life.

Did I say it was a dichotomy? No. But you are wrong to equate America with Life. America stands for many things, not just Life.

When someone says they hate America, it is not obvious whether they hate Life, too. Maybe they think America has become anti-Life. Or maybe they don't connect the idea of America with the idea of Life.

But someone who believes in sacrificing this Life on earth for a supernatural one in Heaven is clearly a Life-hater. That is a much more insidious hatred. It goes straight to the core of morality.

[BobbyT]

But someone who believes in sacrificing this Life on earth for a supernatural one in Heaven is clearly a Life-hater. That is a much more insidious hatred. It goes straight to the core of morality.

Exactly.

I still don't understand why so many people on this forum are suddenly Bush supporters. Don't you know the Objectivists are too few in number to hold sway against his true constituency?

[Kitty Hawk]

I still don't understand why so many people on this forum are suddenly Bush supporters. Don't you know the Objectivists are too few in number to hold sway against his true constituency?

The candidacy of John Kerry is why so many Objectivists are suddenly Bush supporters.

[Betsy]

To tie this in with Dr.Peikoff's assessment of the 2004 election, I would say that we are better off with a pragmatic fence straddler who no one can truly follow (because he has no solid platform to stand on) versus a dogmatic fundamentalist (George W.) with an ENORMOUS evangelical following that exists in America right now in favor of "faith based initiatives". 

As you can see from my posts, I strongly disagree with Dr. Peikoff's conclusions.

I don't think that Bush is a "dogmatic fundamentalist." I see Bush as a well-meaning, honest Eddie Willers of a man who wants to do the right thing but usually doesn't have a clue as to what that is. Then he turn to those he thinks are qualified to advise him. Sometimes he is right (Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld) and sometimes he is wrong (Powell, God). Bush isn't nearly the Holy Roller that Jimmy Carter was (Ayn Rand compared Carter to Elmer Gantry) or Al Gore wants to be.

As for "following," religious fundamentalists want to follow the Bible -- literally -- but they DON'T want to follow a secular leader like a President. That's what Leftists want to do.

The Religious Right may want to save your soul, but the Left wants to control your whole life.

[y_feldblum]

<sarcasm>

* Gasp *

Betsy equated Powell with GOD!

Ban her! Ban her! Or something.

</sarcasm>

But seriously, folks, Bush is not a noxiously, maliciously evil, oil-theiving satanist. Even though he's Skull & Bones. Even though he began the War against Islam. Even though Cheney was once a Halliburton executive.

<imho>

Kerry is. Well, not oil-theiving satanist. He's a noxiously, maliciously evil, power-grabbing communist.

</imho>

With that rant out of the way, Bush honestly understands the fundamental need for morality. He has a code of values. If it's misguided, so is that of 99.999% of the country; Dr. Peikoff is not running for President this year. It is my observation that Kerry cannot care less about morality (notice his inability to recognize the Republicans' family values) - and he has done away with any personal code he may once have possessed. Whereas Bush is as fit as anybody for the Presidency, Kerry is as fit for it as Toohey.

(Insert Dean's YYEEAARRGGHH here.)

[Capitalism Forever]

I can be pretty damn cynical, but I'm not cynical enough to believe that that many millions of Americans actually hate America.

You don't have to be cynical in order to believe in the existence of evil. Once you recognize the fact that men have free will, you know that they can choose their actions--so there is a potential for evil. When you see people like Osama bin Laden or Michael Moore, you know that the potential has been actualized.

Since America has stood for the Good more than any other nation in history, evil people around the world will direct their hatred against America. And people can choose to be evil regardless of where they were born. An evil man in Saudi Arabia will hate America, but an evil man in America will hate America even more, since as an American, he will be associated with all the good things America does--which he sees as a huge disgrace upon his person.

[Capitalism Forever]

Did I say it was a dichotomy? No. But you are wrong to equate America with Life.

Did I say it was an equation? No.

America stands for many things, not just Life.

Yes, America stands for many things, including Life. Which means that America does stand for Life. And, as I wrote in my previous post, it does so more than any other nation ever has in history.

When someone says they hate America, it is not obvious whether they hate Life, too. Maybe they think America has become anti-Life.

Since other nations are more anti-Life than America, such a person would have to hate the whole world. In other words, he would have to hate life.

But someone who believes in sacrificing this Life on earth for a supernatural one in Heaven is clearly a Life-hater.

Why so? He is dead wrong, that's for sure--but he does want a life in Heaven, rather than death.