What Is The Greatest Ancient Civilization?

[Moebius]

Hardly. Confucius lived 551-479 BC, Aristotle 384-322 BC, so less than two centuries.

My bad. But the point remains the same.

[mace]

ancient nubia was the greatest ancient civilization.they were more creative than the egyptian and had advanced learning,morals and had high technology etc.for it's time.

[Thales]

Yeah, so? Confucianism is taught to this date, and he predates Aristotle by a millenia or so. A rather pointless statement.

Pointless? No. It shows you the value of the thinking of the time. While Confucius predates Aristotle, he doesn't predate Thales, and, frankly, the works of Confucius don't rise to any where near the caliber of Aristotle's works. You could break out Aristotle today, the 1/3 of his work that remains, and learn a great deal about life. With Confucius you'd learn some things, but you wouldn't get the depth of epistemology of Aristotle's work.

Anyway, my point is solid, the Greeks provided the foundation that is allowing the West, and the world, to thrive today. They provided the engine for great life improvement: philosophy, science and reason.

damn straight mate as a greek I pride myself on the fact that we greeks provided the engine for Western Civilisation today

It's great to admire the Greeks, but you really can't take pride in what was not your achievement. Pride comes from your personal endeavors, not from the endeavors of others.

[volco]

has someone pointed out that the phoenicians were the only of the mentioned civilizations, that used their force to stablish free trade areas? The only one not ran by priests nor warlords, but essentially by traders?

[horvay]

Since civilization is moved by ideas, Greece is the best, hands down. Rome was just an application of these ideas.

China was horrible... they had some good technology, but never got better.

[horvay]

how can you all put greece next to Egypt? the Greeks and romans didn't even exist when the pyramids were build 2500 BC. I 'm not even mentioning the library of 'alexanderia'. they had on highly advanced society when the greeks and romans were still walking around like cavemen.

oh and the Minoans had major influence on Greece...I wouldn't even c that the greeks are on the same level as the minoans were...

Roma is overrated. compare what they did in europa with what Qin did in China, around(even before actually) the same time. to be the greatest empire ever, u must be above all the other empires imo....Egypt obviously was a couple thousand years ahead of it's time and should be considered the greatest imo.

It wasn't the size of the buildings, its how they used them...

But Aristotle explicitly layed out logic. Most great thinkers after Aristotle were Aristotelean. When people accepted Aristotle's epistemology, extremely rapid progression took place in history.

[Branden]

I think that Greece is undoubtedly the greatest ancient civilization. Of course, other empires had greater areas of land, existed earlier, existed longer, and so forth, but I don't think those factors are a primary determinate in identifying the "greatest" ancient civilization. Horvay summed it up well:

...civilization is moved by ideas...

Of course, other civilizations developed philosophy, math, logic, etc as well as Greece. However, Greece was unique in this regard. Not only did Aristotle make it explicit, as horvay again pointed out, but him and the other Greek thinkers were able to lay the foundations for modern Western civilization, which I think we will all recognize as being superior (despite its lingering imperfections). Other ancient civilizations might have had insightful thinkers as well, but they weren't insightful enough to lay the foundations for an Enlightenment. In this regard, Greek thinkers were uniquely superior, and thus Greece is the greatest ancient civilization.

[ruveyn ben yosef]

The Aztecs' knowledge of mathematics nd astronomy came from their predecessors the Mayans that's like the only reason they were that good at those. Don't get me wrong I don't hate the Aztecs I actually like them quite a bit but the only reason as far as I know that they were advanced in astronomy nd mathematics was coz of the Mayans. The Aztecs were more of a militaristic civilisation.

Aztecs:Mayan === Romans:Greeks Roughly.

ruveyn

[volco]

is there such a thing as a Hebraic Civilization? Not talking about ancient Judeah and Samaria, I'm asking if for example, ashkenazim were a culture distinct from both western crhistianity and orthodox christianity?

Perhaps the real embeded question here is: How sparcely distributed can a culture/people be to be considered a civilization?

IF civilization depends on the millitary power to sustain a productive territory, then we'd find that the greek civilization was actually the Roman one (in the same sense that Alexander a Macedonian, expanded Helenism)

[ruveyn ben yosef]

is there such a thing as a Hebraic Civilization? Not talking about ancient Judeah and Samaria, I'm asking if for example, ashkenazim were a culture distinct from both western crhistianity and orthodox christianity?

Perhaps the real embeded question here is: How sparcely distributed can a culture/people be to be considered a civilization?

IF civilization depends on the millitary power to sustain a productive territory, then we'd find that the greek civilization was actually the Roman one (in the same sense that Alexander a Macedonian, expanded Helenism)

Hebraic (or Jewish) nations have risen and fallen in the past. In ancient times the Land of Canaan was always the nut in the nutcracker between Egypt and Persia so it is no surprise that Hebraic nations (under David and Solomon and their successors) arose and later fell to the Assyrians and the Persians which were far more populous and widespread. The first Jewish Commonwealth, the David dynasty fell appart after Solomon and the north fell to the Assyrians. Later the south kingdom (Judah) fell to the Persians. Later on a second commonwealth arose with fell to the Selucids and later to the Romans. The Macabee Revolt against the Selucids eventually brought in Rome and the Jewish Revolt against Rome lead to the destruction of the Second Commonwealth and the dispersion of the Jews.

Now change the question slightly. Is there such a thing as Hebraic Culture? Answer: There sure is! Tune in on the Seinfeld Show for a minor example. Hebraic (or Jewish) culture has -survived- the defeat of Hebraic (or Jewish) nations. Even if Israel went down the drain next year, Jewish culture will keep right on surviving. Hebraic (or Jewish) culture has not only survived, but it has flourished in the United States and Canada to the profit and prosperity of all concerned.

ruveyn

[volco]

Hebraic (or Jewish) nations have risen and fallen in the past. In ancient times the Land of Canaan was always the nut in the nutcracker between Egypt and Persia so it is no surprise that Hebraic nations (under David and Solomon and their successors) arose and later fell to the Assyrians and the Persians which were far more populous and widespread. The first Jewish Commonwealth, the David dynasty fell appart after Solomon and the north fell to the Assyrians. Later the south kingdom (Judah) fell to the Persians. Later on a second commonwealth arose with fell to the Selucids and later to the Romans. The Macabee Revolt against the Selucids eventually brought in Rome and the Jewish Revolt against Rome lead to the destruction of the Second Commonwealth and the dispersion of the Jews.

Now change the question slightly. Is there such a thing as Hebraic Culture? Answer: There sure is! Tune in on the Seinfeld Show for a minor example. Hebraic (or Jewish) culture has -survived- the defeat of Hebraic (or Jewish) nations. Even if Israel went down the drain next year, Jewish culture will keep right on surviving. Hebraic (or Jewish) culture has not only survived, but it has flourished in the United States and Canada to the profit and prosperity of all concerned.

ruveyn

Ajah, well that's pretty much the point: How SPARCELY distributed can the individuals that integrate a civilization be, and how mixed can they become, to still consider an Israelite (let's keep religion out of it) Civilization?

There's another question. Can Judaism with all its fantastic secular characteristics survive the loss of its mystic part.

Ruveyn, you as an atheist, would be interested in that.

My grandfatehr abandoned judaism, but certain completely secular "traditions" survive, like you mentioned: Seinfeld.

New York, Los Angeles, Miami, Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires, host more jews (religious or otherwise) altogether than Israel. And I'd love to know why would any agnostic / atheist Israelite could prefer the Middle East to the Americas.

[ruveyn ben yosef]

I think that Greece is undoubtedly the greatest ancient civilization. Of course, other empires had greater areas of land, existed earlier, existed longer, and so forth, but I don't think those factors are a primary determinate in identifying the "greatest" ancient civilization. Horvay summed it up well:

Of course, other civilizations developed philosophy, math, logic, etc as well as Greece. However, Greece was unique in this regard. Not only did Aristotle make it explicit, as horvay again pointed out, but him and the other Greek thinkers were able to lay the foundations for modern Western civilization, which I think we will all recognize as being superior (despite its lingering imperfections). Other ancient civilizations might have had insightful thinkers as well, but they weren't insightful enough to lay the foundations for an Enlightenment. In this regard, Greek thinkers were uniquely superior, and thus Greece is the greatest ancient civilization.

During the tragically brief period when the scholars of the Islamic Domains showed bright and brilliant light in the intellectual sphere, Muslim scholars made substantial advances over the Greeks in the fields of mathematics, optics, chemistry, medicine, pharmacology and navigation. The Greeks never developed algebra (nor did they have the zero, as did the Babylonians, the Chinese, the Indus, the Arabs and the Maya). The Muslim, al Jabir did and the field is even named after him. The notion of the calculation recipe is the brainchild of al Kwarizmi, after who the algorithm is named. Muslim scholars wrote their names of a good deal of mathematics that drove European development. Europe excelled and went way past the Greeks insofar as they pursued analytical technique (algebra, analytic geometry, calculus) as opposed to synthetic technique as exemplified in Euclid and Eudoxus. Mathematics was finally healed and strengthened when the analytic approach and the synthetic approach were reconciled and merged in the 19-th century by European mathematicians. In their intellectually fertile period, the Muslim scholars developed a strong empirical thread in their theoretical science, a tendency that moved to Europe along with the works of the ancient Greeks. The presence of Aristotle in Europe during the Middle Ages came to be by way of import from the Muslim east and from the Andalucia in Spain (which was Muslim until the time of Ferdinand and Isabella)

Unfortunately for the Muslims (and us) their brief period of intellectual brilliance was brought to an end by the Darkness Within. Islam, the religion, hosted a dreadful meme that led to the Muslims to suppress the open spirit of inquiry and subordinate it to religious bigotry and mysticism. So fell Andalus and Baghdad. Alas! A great loss to both them and us. We are seeing the results even as we read the daily newspapers.

ruveyn

[punk]

During the tragically brief period when the scholars of the Islamic Domains showed bright and brilliant light in the intellectual sphere, Muslim scholars made substantial advances over the Greeks in the fields of mathematics, optics, chemistry, medicine, pharmacology and navigation. The Greeks never developed algebra (nor did they have the zero, as did the Babylonians, the Chinese, the Indus, the Arabs and the Maya). The Muslim, al Jabir did and the field is even named after him. The notion of the calculation recipe is the brainchild of al Kwarizmi, after who the algorithm is named. Muslim scholars wrote their names of a good deal of mathematics that drove European development. Europe excelled and went way past the Greeks insofar as they pursued analytical technique (algebra, analytic geometry, calculus) as opposed to synthetic technique as exemplified in Euclid and Eudoxus. Mathematics was finally healed and strengthened when the analytic approach and the synthetic approach were reconciled and merged in the 19-th century by European mathematicians. In their intellectually fertile period, the Muslim scholars developed a strong empirical thread in their theoretical science, a tendency that moved to Europe along with the works of the ancient Greeks. The presence of Aristotle in Europe during the Middle Ages came to be by way of import from the Muslim east and from the Andalucia in Spain (which was Muslim until the time of Ferdinand and Isabella)

Unfortunately for the Muslims (and us) their brief period of intellectual brilliance was brought to an end by the Darkness Within. Islam, the religion, hosted a dreadful meme that led to the Muslims to suppress the open spirit of inquiry and subordinate it to religious bigotry and mysticism. So fell Andalus and Baghdad. Alas! A great loss to both them and us. We are seeing the results even as we read the daily newspapers.

ruveyn

I'm not sure about the "deadly meme", but I do understand that the Mongols had quite a bit to do with the decline of Islamic civilization.

[volco]

During the tragically brief period when the scholars of the Islamic Domains showed bright and brilliant light in the intellectual sphere, Muslim scholars made substantial advances over the Greeks in the fields of mathematics, optics, chemistry, medicine, pharmacology and navigation. The Greeks never developed algebra (nor did they have the zero, as did the Babylonians, the Chinese, the Indus, the Arabs and the Maya). The Muslim, al Jabir did and the field is even named after him. The notion of the calculation recipe is the brainchild of al Kwarizmi, after who the algorithm is named. Muslim scholars wrote their names of a good deal of mathematics that drove European development. Europe excelled and went way past the Greeks insofar as they pursued analytical technique (algebra, analytic geometry, calculus) as opposed to synthetic technique as exemplified in Euclid and Eudoxus. Mathematics was finally healed and strengthened when the analytic approach and the synthetic approach were reconciled and merged in the 19-th century by European mathematicians. In their intellectually fertile period, the Muslim scholars developed a strong empirical thread in their theoretical science, a tendency that moved to Europe along with the works of the ancient Greeks. The presence of Aristotle in Europe during the Middle Ages came to be by way of import from the Muslim east and from the Andalucia in Spain (which was Muslim until the time of Ferdinand and Isabella)

Unfortunately for the Muslims (and us) their brief period of intellectual brilliance was brought to an end by the Darkness Within. Islam, the religion, hosted a dreadful meme that led to the Muslims to suppress the open spirit of inquiry and subordinate it to religious bigotry and mysticism. So fell Andalus and Baghdad. Alas! A great loss to both them and us. We are seeing the results even as we read the daily newspapers.

ruveyn

brilliant and concise.

I believe the 0 was invented in India imported by musim schollars (not sure if al Khwarizimi) ?

[Juxtys]

I voted for Babylon, since it was one of the first civilizations. Some Greek achievements were actually made by Babylonians and Sumerians. Therefore, they even had heliocentric solar system and overwhelmed Western Civilizations in astronomy by at least four thousdant years. It is somewhat significant achievment to call them the greatest, althought conquered by Alexander the great.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

Actually they imploded at the end of the Bronze age like just about every other civilization near or on the Mediterranean, then the Neo-Babylonian empire (as it is called today) got swallowed by the Assyrians before they in turn got swallowed by Persia, which was *then* conquered by Alexander the Great. (I may have left a couple of steps out of that.)

[War]

I say China, and I read a post about China's inventions compared to other civilizations. I just want to inform that person that the first ' earthquake detector' was invented in China. As for herbal medicines, I wouldn't say China is the only civilization that still practices it - India? - but it sure is popular.

[lillyz269]

The Greeks have to win this poll since, thanks to Zeno, they will live on forever!

I agree with you, too much over rating has been given to the Greeks and Romans. The West has little understanding of China and its vast history of 5000+ years

[volco]

I agree with you, too much over rating has been given to the Greeks and Romans. The West has little understanding of China and its vast history of 5000+ years

True, many people think of CHina as a single politically entity when it's never been one, but rather a whole civilization that's managed to keep (AT ITS OWN EXPENSE!) itself under a centralized power from time to time.

As little as I understand about Chinese history, I know that:

- Confucious (kong fu zen?) was a phillosopher claimed to be compared only to Aristotle, but also to Zoroaster, so I don't know exactly its merit. I do love most of his quotes though.

- They led the technological race until the XVII c when the Imperial Court requiered a European Jesuit to set and fix the mechanical clocks (which were themselves a gift from the missionaries)

- They were isolationists, and by that I mean "cyclical" or a closed system: I understand their unwillingness to explore the barbarian infested, cold tundra north to the Wall, but after many ships were issued permit to explore the warm seas, and THEN THAT PERMITT WAS WITHDREW, they lost the civilizating of Insulindia to the Arabs! Unexcusable and an early examply of state protectionism, and state sponsored (and forced) phobia.

There would be no Pratley Islands conflict now (and a lot let muslims in Indonesia!) had the Chinese expanded in time.

[Moebius]

True, many people think of CHina as a single politically entity when it's never been one, but rather a whole civilization that's managed to keep (AT ITS OWN EXPENSE!) itself under a centralized power from time to time.

Eh? A single civilization of people under a centralized power doesn't constitute a political entity? That's new to me.

They were isolationists, and by that I mean "cyclical" or a closed system: I understand their unwillingness to explore the barbarian infested, cold tundra north to the Wall, but after many ships were issued permit to explore the warm seas, and THEN THAT PERMITT WAS WITHDREW, they lost the civilizating of Insulindia to the Arabs! Unexcusable and an early examply of state protectionism, and state sponsored (and forced) phobia.

Hard to read because of your spelling... but that is sort of just a slice out of 5000 years. No doubt China were isolationists at some points during that time period, but expansionists also at other times. The Tang dynasty for instance.

[volco]

Eh? A single civilization of people under a centralized power doesn't constitute a political entity? That's new to me.

mean the chinese civiliztion beyond the many different kingdoms not always centralized, plus their early and modern demographic colonies.

Hard to read because of your spelling... but that is sort of just a slice out of 5000 years. No doubt China were isolationists at some points during that time period, but expansionists also at other times. The Tang dynasty for instance.

that was inland expansion while I mean they lost their chance to get southern asia before the Arabs and Dutch did.

My point is that they didnt have to cross huge oceans to expand, commercially at first/least, to Insulindia.. The only reason tradesmen, craftsmen, fishermen, and "bankers" if they existed (nobles?) didnt naturallyseize that colonial trophy is for a tradition of centralism. I see is essentially as if the Roman Empire had never crumbled.

[War]

This is probably unrelated to what you two are arguing, but you should read the legendary journeys of Zheng He and the Seven Voyages

[War]

Why isn't India on the list?

[Moebius]

mean the chinese civiliztion beyond the many different kingdoms not always centralized, plus their early and modern demographic colonies.

Same way with the Greeks however, with its myriad city-states each espousing different ideologies and cultures (some of which -like Sparta- are in complete disagreement with modern Western values). Certainly they were not a centralized bunch. Yet in retrospect they are identified in its totality as the Greek civilization.

that was inland expansion while I mean they lost their chance to get southern asia before the Arabs and Dutch did.

My point is that they didnt have to cross huge oceans to expand, commercially at first/least, to Insulindia.. The only reason tradesmen, craftsmen, fishermen, and "bankers" if they existed (nobles?) didnt naturallyseize that colonial trophy is for a tradition of centralism. I see is essentially as if the Roman Empire had never crumbled.

It is true that during the (Western) Imperialism Era China had an isolationist policy, which resulted in the situations you are referring to. However the Chinese was in direct trade and military contact with Southern Asia for a long time, despite the fact that they didn't actually militarily conquered it. Actually travel to those areas and you will see strong Chinese influences and many of Chinese descent who control a disproportionate amount of resources even TODAY, and whose families have been there for centuries.

The Dutch on the other hand had bigger guns and cannons. And the relatively short amount of time they were there ended when the weaponry of the natives caught up. Hence why I say that it would be better to talk about a civilization in its totality rather than simply examining a slice of time.

[Thales]

Why isn't India on the list?

Because India is such a strange place that nobody wants to talk about it. It's just way out there strange.

As proven by this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Pjo0WjBcs

I kid.