Weird Argument For Socialism

[NIJamesHughes]

recently i was having a debate with an old friend of mine about government programs like welfare, and she said "well, i can't say anything against government programs because my mom was really poor and we wouldn't have had anywhere to live or anything to eat if it hadn't been for the government"

I really didn't know what to say to this except, "well maybe your mom would have had enough money if the government did tax 25% from each check.."

how could this argument be classified, and what is the proper response?

[kenstauffer]

Argument from ancedote, or personal experience. I would respond by pointing out that her same argument could be said by a white southern slave owner to defend slavery.

"well, I can't say anything against slavery because I was really poor and I wouldn't have had any money if it hadn't been for the cheap slave labor"

[NIJamesHughes]

Argument from ancedote, or personal experience. I would respond by pointing out that her same argument could be said by a white southern slave owner to defend slavery.

"well, I can't say anything against slavery because I was really poor and I wouldn't have had any money if it hadn't been for the cheap slave labor"

Thank you for your reply, Ken.

One more question:

Why is argument from ancedote invalid, logically?

[Cole]

Well, it wasn't technically a fallacious argument, since the conclusion was essentially "I don't dislike the government." If she went on to explicitly argue that those government programs are justifiable because she likes them, then that would be fallacious.

I classify that line of reasoning as "Need Negating Property Rights." Ask her what property rights are, and how anybody's right to their property is dependent on her mother's needs. This position cannot be supported without using a flawed understanding of property rights, or the denial (directly or indirectly) of property rights all together.

[kenstauffer]

Why is argument from ancedote invalid, logically?

It's not always invalid. A valid use of an ancedote would be as a counter example, as in this case:

If I say X is always true and you ancedotally show an instance in which X is not true, then it's a good argument.

An ancedote can refute a principle, but an ancedote that supports a principle, is mostly useless. That's precisely why we need science, so that we can infer truth beyond the causual everyday experience of man.

[NIJamesHughes]

close encounter with a democratic socialist hindu environmentalist multiculturalist, that i just can't stop talking to. She will probably grow up to be a typical leftist intellectual, unfortunately:

JamesShrugged [10:28 PM]: i think they changed quickly because the FF made one fatal ommision to the constitution and one fatal admission

ThinRedKitty [10:28 PM]: Which I'd like to tell all the Christians in the World

JamesShrugged [10:29 PM]: the ommision was the lack of a property right

JamesShrugged [10:29 PM]: yeah!

ThinRedKitty [10:29 PM]: American government was NOT founded on Christianity

JamesShrugged [10:29 PM]: and the addmission was section 8

JamesShrugged [10:29 PM]: very true

ThinRedKitty [10:29 PM]: the idea of GOD was not a specific GOD

JamesShrugged [10:29 PM]: it was founded on the principle of individual rights

ThinRedKitty [10:29 PM]: therefore, the ideals Christians think should be forced upon the people are Wrong

JamesShrugged [10:30 PM]: i agree

JamesShrugged [10:30 PM]: i have made an anti christian website, would you like to see it?

ThinRedKitty [10:31 PM]: I guess I can be content in any situation where I have enough money and people arent invading my home

ThinRedKitty [10:31 PM]: Sure!

JamesShrugged [10:31 PM]: Religion: and the Threat of Fascism in America

JamesShrugged [10:32 PM]: 18 articles on religion and capitalism

JamesShrugged [10:33 PM]: the articles are by Objectivist's

ThinRedKitty [10:33 PM]: Im reading the Abortion one

ThinRedKitty [10:33 PM]: I read a really good article once, and it said women today are being treated as merely containers

JamesShrugged [10:34 PM]: true

ThinRedKitty [10:34 PM]: its true, its like we are Nothing

JamesShrugged [10:34 PM]: its because thats the way religion sees humans

ThinRedKitty [10:34 PM]: And its usually MEN who are behind the Pro-Life movement

JamesShrugged [10:35 PM]: Christianity says the body is meaningless, so the right says, so what if we legislate it

JamesShrugged [10:35 PM]: no need to make hasty generalizations

JamesShrugged [10:35 PM]:

JamesShrugged [10:35 PM]: besides its irrelevent what ones gender is in relation to philosophic issues

ThinRedKitty [10:36 PM]: yeah, can you imagine having some kind of parasite attached to your body like that, not that babies are parasites, but fetuses are similar to the work of a parasite

JamesShrugged [10:36 PM]: biologically they are though...

JamesShrugged [10:36 PM]: especially if you don't want it there

ThinRedKitty [10:36 PM]: And can you imagine someone saying sorry you cant remove it

ThinRedKitty [10:36 PM]: exactly

JamesShrugged [10:36 PM]: i know!!

ThinRedKitty [10:36 PM]: Id be like F YOU

JamesShrugged [10:37 PM]: thats why it all seems so unreal to me when i have to argue about it

ThinRedKitty [10:37 PM]: ME TOO!

ThinRedKitty [10:37 PM]: I mean, even if a Man were good, and he said He'd take care of it, there are other issues

ThinRedKitty [10:37 PM]: Such as the sick feeling

JamesShrugged [10:38 PM]: i think "they cant really believe what they are saying, noone can: its monstrous

ThinRedKitty [10:38 PM]: and not being able to work

JamesShrugged [10:38 PM]: not to mention the actual birth

ThinRedKitty [10:38 PM]: I mean, even if other stresses can be alleviated with money, certain issues where a fetus is concerned cannot be

ThinRedKitty [10:38 PM]: OH GOD

JamesShrugged [10:39 PM]: "you have to by law fit shomething the size of a watermelon into an opening the size of a lemon..."

JamesShrugged [10:39 PM]: out of*

JamesShrugged [10:39 PM]: sick bastards

ThinRedKitty [10:39 PM]: Oh god

ThinRedKitty [10:39 PM]: hehehe

ThinRedKitty [10:39 PM]: I wanna have a baby someday, but it will be MY CHOICE

ThinRedKitty [10:39 PM]: Just like its my choice not to have one

JamesShrugged [10:40 PM]: good deal

JamesShrugged [10:40 PM]: i think i would like to raise a baby someday

ThinRedKitty [10:40 PM]: yeah, I love kids

ThinRedKitty [10:40 PM]: SO CUTE

ThinRedKitty [10:40 PM]: and sweet, most of the time

JamesShrugged [10:40 PM]: there is also an article on assisted suicide on the page

ThinRedKitty [10:40 PM]: You know whats weird,

JamesShrugged [10:40 PM]: yeah

JamesShrugged [10:41 PM]: what?

ThinRedKitty [10:41 PM]: I guess I havent really had the generation gap

ThinRedKitty [10:41 PM]: I try to say Y'all have a nice day or something, if a girl has a kid

ThinRedKitty [10:41 PM]: I want the kids to feel like they matter too

JamesShrugged [10:41 PM]: naw its just polite

ThinRedKitty [10:41 PM]: Too many people treat young people like shit

JamesShrugged [10:41 PM]: sure

ThinRedKitty [10:42 PM]: They deserve to be recognized too

ThinRedKitty [10:42 PM]: besides makes them smile

JamesShrugged [10:42 PM]: hehe cute

JamesShrugged [10:42 PM]: ick it is raining and thundering outside

JamesShrugged [10:43 PM]: what did you think of the article?

ThinRedKitty [10:43 PM]: its good

ThinRedKitty [10:43 PM]: I wanna be more charitable

ThinRedKitty [10:43 PM]: im gonna do more nice things for people

JamesShrugged [10:44 PM]: with the gov. already deciding what you should donate to, its kinda hard to do it on your own

JamesShrugged [10:44 PM]: as far as money goes

ThinRedKitty [10:44 PM]: true

JamesShrugged [10:44 PM]: i donate to the ayn rand institute though

ThinRedKitty [10:44 PM]: im gonna give a bunch of clothes to goodwill

ThinRedKitty [10:44 PM]: cool

JamesShrugged [10:45 PM]: i was thinking of donating a copies of all of her books the UAFS library

ThinRedKitty [10:45 PM]: i hate chocolate but i buy these chocolates at school, and the money goes to the endangered animals

ThinRedKitty [10:45 PM]: good idea

JamesShrugged [10:45 PM]: maybe like 15%

JamesShrugged [10:46 PM]: i worked for a telemarketing company and we raise money for the state police and only 15% went to them

ThinRedKitty [10:46 PM]: yeah its low but the bars are relatively cheap

ThinRedKitty [10:47 PM]: and the man worked in the science field in africa

JamesShrugged [10:47 PM]: i know of a proreason environmental concern group

JamesShrugged [10:47 PM]: thats cool, i always loved science

ThinRedKitty [10:47 PM]: so he founded his company based on the atrocities he saw the others committing

JamesShrugged [10:48 PM]: to animals?

ThinRedKitty [10:48 PM]: yes

ThinRedKitty [10:48 PM]: like poaching and stuff

JamesShrugged [10:48 PM]: yeah thats no good

ThinRedKitty [10:48 PM]: I knowww

JamesShrugged [10:48 PM]: i think i have a website for everything lol

JamesShrugged [10:49 PM]: Save The Earth From The Environmentalists try the opening quote

ThinRedKitty [10:49 PM]: In Hinduism we believe Animals were created on a different statues, because humans are unique in language and etc. However, God created us more intelligent in order to help take care of animals

ThinRedKitty [10:49 PM]: So we owe it to them to treat them with respect because of all that humans take from them

JamesShrugged [10:50 PM]: sure we should

ThinRedKitty [10:50 PM]: We dont advocate anything however,

JamesShrugged [10:51 PM]: but when it comes to us or them, we should definately chose us

ThinRedKitty [10:51 PM]: because its up to each of us to believe whatever,

ThinRedKitty [10:51 PM]: But we can change ourselves

ThinRedKitty [10:51 PM]: yeah, depends on the person hehee

JamesShrugged [10:51 PM]: lol right

JamesShrugged [10:51 PM]: but i mean humanity in general

ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]: yeah

ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]: We are destroying ourselves

ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]: quickly

JamesShrugged [10:52 PM]: on case i heard of and hate is that some farmers had to shut down their irrigation system because it might harm the trout population..

ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]: wow, trout arent exactly on the endangered species list

ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]: lol

JamesShrugged [10:53 PM]: yeah i know

JamesShrugged [10:53 PM]: stuff like that happens all the time

JamesShrugged [10:53 PM]: like with ddt

ThinRedKitty [10:53 PM]: I mean, in order to protect life in general we should protect those endangered, but whats a few hundred trout?

JamesShrugged [10:53 PM]: especially when you consider that farmers grow our food

ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]: brb

JamesShrugged [10:54 PM]: k

ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]: nm, my roommie in tha bathroom

ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]: gah

JamesShrugged [10:54 PM]: this is funny and true: "Earth First!" The unspoken implication is: humans last.

ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]: I drank too much coffee

JamesShrugged [10:54 PM]: uh oh

JamesShrugged [10:54 PM]:

JamesShrugged [10:55 PM]: there is a girl at work who literally has to pee every 15 minutes

ThinRedKitty [10:55 PM]: ME TOO

JamesShrugged [10:55 PM]: and we work out of a car in the field so...

JamesShrugged [10:55 PM]: we are always pulling over

ThinRedKitty [10:55 PM]: That was me on the way to Chicago

ThinRedKitty [10:55 PM]: ahhaha

JamesShrugged [10:56 PM]: she said, you dont have to go to a bathroom, just make sure noone is around.. hehe

JamesShrugged [10:56 PM]: so now we carry toilt paper with us

JamesShrugged [10:56 PM]: toilet*

ThinRedKitty [10:56 PM]: hahaha

ThinRedKitty [10:56 PM]: that sucks!

JamesShrugged [10:57 PM]: what would be a good day to celebrate the industrial revolution?

ThinRedKitty [10:57 PM]: hmmm

ThinRedKitty [10:57 PM]: i dunno, maybe something to do with Russia?

ThinRedKitty [10:58 PM]: or some invention's birthday that had the most impact

JamesShrugged [10:58 PM]: thomas edison.. henry ford

ThinRedKitty [10:58 PM]: oooh

ThinRedKitty [10:58 PM]: good idea

ThinRedKitty [10:58 PM]: henry ford mo def

JamesShrugged [10:59 PM]: hehe

JamesShrugged [10:59 PM]: silly

ThinRedKitty [10:59 PM]: I love my car (>_<)

ThinRedKitty [10:59 PM]: I love driving

ThinRedKitty [10:59 PM]: k brb

JamesShrugged [10:59 PM]: k

ThinRedKitty [11:01 PM]: k bac

k

JamesShrugged [11:01 PM]: cool

ThinRedKitty [11:02 PM]: Gotta write my Jap journal

ThinRedKitty [11:02 PM]: Im glad my new laptop has japanese font

ThinRedKitty [11:02 PM]: Makes it easier

JamesShrugged [11:02 PM]: don't you find it curios that when a country socializes an industry, all the best people in that field quit or leave to another country?

JamesShrugged [11:02 PM]: cool deal

ThinRedKitty [11:03 PM]: Whatcha mean?

JamesShrugged [11:05 PM]: like britain

JamesShrugged [11:06 PM]: when they socialized medicine all the doctors went to america

ThinRedKitty [11:06 PM]: hahaha

ThinRedKitty [11:06 PM]: Yeah, people get concerned about elsewhere

JamesShrugged [11:06 PM]: and soviet russia had to close it borders to keep people from leaving

ThinRedKitty [11:06 PM]: lol

ThinRedKitty [11:08 PM]: Im gettin out of here

ThinRedKitty [11:08 PM]: hehee

ThinRedKitty [11:08 PM]: I hope I like overseas

ThinRedKitty [11:08 PM]: I like my culture, but I also like others

JamesShrugged [11:10 PM]: brb

ThinRedKitty [11:10 PM]: k

JamesShrugged [11:13 PM]: i'm gonna stay and fight it

JamesShrugged [11:13 PM]: the governmant is man made, and nothing that is man made is immuatable

JamesShrugged [11:14 PM]: immutable*

ThinRedKitty [11:15 PM]: its storming bad here now

JamesShrugged [11:15 PM]: it moved through here already

JamesShrugged [11:15 PM]: where are you at?

ThinRedKitty [11:16 PM]: Fayetteville

ThinRedKitty [11:16 PM]: I live in campus apartments

JamesShrugged [11:16 PM]: oh cool

ThinRedKitty [11:17 PM]: Theyre the cheapest

ThinRedKitty [11:17 PM]: Also, I hate Dorm life

ThinRedKitty [11:17 PM]: Dorms are more expensive, and they force you to be on a meal plan

ThinRedKitty [11:17 PM]: So I opted for a ugly apartment

JamesShrugged [11:17 PM]: oh really?

ThinRedKitty [11:18 PM]: But the ugly apartment is MUCH better

JamesShrugged [11:18 PM]: i can imagine

ThinRedKitty [11:18 PM]: I love having my OWN place

JamesShrugged [11:22 PM]: oh you really like movies dont you?

ThinRedKitty [11:29 PM]: YES

ThinRedKitty [11:29 PM]: Sorry took me so long

JamesShrugged [11:29 PM]: its ok

ThinRedKitty [11:29 PM]: My Sister was talking to me

JamesShrugged [11:29 PM]: have you seen the fountain head

JamesShrugged [11:30 PM]: tell her i said "hi"

JamesShrugged [11:30 PM]: fountainhead*

ThinRedKitty [11:30 PM]: No

ThinRedKitty [11:30 PM]: k

ThinRedKitty [11:30 PM]: I will

ThinRedKitty [11:30 PM]: Is it indie movie?

JamesShrugged [11:31 PM]: mm i dont think so

JamesShrugged [11:31 PM]: it is in black and white

ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: Oh neato!

ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: I like black and white

JamesShrugged [11:32 PM]: it is based on ayn rands bestseller and she wrote the script and supervised the production

ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: Like The Man Who Wasnt There

ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: by the Coens

JamesShrugged [11:32 PM]: i haven't seen it

ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: Its GREAT

ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: Billy Bob THortnon

JamesShrugged [11:33 PM]: ill have

JamesShrugged [11:33 PM]: when was it produced?

JamesShrugged [11:33 PM]: have to check it out*

ThinRedKitty [11:34 PM]: maybe late 90s early 2000

ThinRedKitty [11:34 PM]: Every song in there is Beethoven

ThinRedKitty [11:34 PM]: and its really kinda a calm movie

JamesShrugged [11:34 PM]: TF was produced in the 40's i think or the 50's

ThinRedKitty [11:35 PM]: okay

ThinRedKitty [11:35 PM]: I will check it out

ThinRedKitty [11:35 PM]: May be hard to find??

JamesShrugged [11:36 PM]: umm it is at the fort smith public library

ThinRedKitty [11:37 PM]: k

ThinRedKitty [11:38 PM]: im taking lots of new stuff next semester

JamesShrugged [11:38 PM]: really? like what?

ThinRedKitty [11:38 PM]: middle east culture

ThinRedKitty [11:39 PM]: geographical info systems

JamesShrugged [11:39 PM]: i really dislike middle eastern culture

JamesShrugged [11:39 PM]: especially islam

JamesShrugged [11:40 PM]: i think it is an even worse religion than christianity

ThinRedKitty [11:40 PM]: i like islam better than christianity

JamesShrugged [11:40 PM]: really?

JamesShrugged [11:40 PM]: at least christianity has been a little westernized

ThinRedKitty [11:40 PM]: thats bad lol

JamesShrugged [11:40 PM]: islam is all about oppression of women and control of everyones lives

JamesShrugged [11:41 PM]: i mean it is a little more civil than islam

ThinRedKitty [11:41 PM]: hmm not so much

ThinRedKitty [11:41 PM]: i mean true islam isnt so bad as culturalized'

ThinRedKitty [11:42 PM]: Its a womans choice to wear hijab [headscarf]

JamesShrugged [11:42 PM]: i read a report about Iran where the religious police wouldn't let 7 little girls out of a burning building because they weren't wearing their veils

ThinRedKitty [11:42 PM]: And the ideals of Woman in westernized society are oppressive as well

ThinRedKitty [11:43 PM]: yeah in the Middle East cultural Islam is bad

JamesShrugged [11:43 PM]: maybe in christian, but not secular culture

JamesShrugged [11:43 PM]: plus the suicide bombers...because they believe in heaven

ThinRedKitty [11:43 PM]: but there are other non Islamic cultures that are worse

ThinRedKitty [11:44 PM]: And most Muslims are not Arabs

ThinRedKitty [11:44 PM]: Most are Indonesians

JamesShrugged [11:44 PM]: maybe but none of them have a billion followers like islam

ThinRedKitty [11:44 PM]: Indonesia is the biggest Muslim nation in the World

JamesShrugged [11:44 PM]: true

ThinRedKitty [11:44 PM]: percentage wise Arabs make up about 20 percent

JamesShrugged [11:45 PM]: weird

ThinRedKitty [11:45 PM]: Im also taking Latin American Politics

JamesShrugged [11:46 PM]: ick

JamesShrugged [11:46 PM]: latin america: the sewr of socialism

JamesShrugged [11:47 PM]: sewer*

ThinRedKitty [11:47 PM]: I wanna be smarter!

JamesShrugged [11:47 PM]:

JamesShrugged [11:47 PM]: they are interesting topics

ThinRedKitty [11:49 PM]: yep!

JamesShrugged [11:50 PM]: my favorites are philosophy, psychology and american history

JamesShrugged [11:50 PM]: i remember when i first saw you in sociology...

JamesShrugged [11:50 PM]: it seems like a very long time ago

ThinRedKitty [11:51 PM]: I love Philosophy!

JamesShrugged [11:52 PM]: you were the coolest person in college

JamesShrugged [11:53 PM]: yeah i want to write for the ayn rand institute someday about philosophy

ThinRedKitty [11:53 PM]: awww

ThinRedKitty [11:53 PM]: Thanks!

ThinRedKitty [11:53 PM]: You were too

JamesShrugged [11:53 PM]: until then i am starting an online magazine of reviews of popular culture from a philosophic perspective

JamesShrugged [11:53 PM]: thank you

ThinRedKitty [11:54 PM]: ahhh

gimme example!

JamesShrugged [11:56 PM]: i haven't written any yet, i'm a terrible procrastinator

JamesShrugged [11:57 PM]: i was actually thinking of watching walking tall and reviewing it right after i eat

JamesShrugged [11:57 PM]: i think it is my favorite modern movie

ThinRedKitty [11:57 PM]: I havent seen

ThinRedKitty [11:57 PM]: WHats it about

JamesShrugged [11:57 PM]: its about a man who won't compromise

JamesShrugged [11:58 PM]: he goes to the army and comes back to find his town has been taken over by drug dealers and corrupt cops with a casino and he takes them out

JamesShrugged [11:58 PM]: he just never compromises what he believe is right

ThinRedKitty [11:59 PM]: Ahhh

ThinRedKitty [11:59 PM]: I remember

ThinRedKitty [11:59 PM]: the Rock??

JamesShrugged [11:59 PM]: yeah

JamesShrugged [11:59 PM]: i thkn he was very good for the role

JamesShrugged [11:59 PM]: think*

ThinRedKitty [11:59 PM]: yeah I wanted to see it

JamesShrugged [12:00 AM]: what i really want to do besides review movies i like is review whatever is the bestseller of the week

JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: and one bestseller book and album for the month

ThinRedKitty [12:01 AM]: You should read Haruki Murakami

JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: and that will make each issue

ThinRedKitty [12:01 AM]: He is my favorite author ever

JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: 4 movie reviews, a book review, and an album review

JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: until there are more people than just me doing it

JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: i've never heard of him

JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: what does he write?

ThinRedKitty [12:02 AM]: Hmmm its called Magical Realism

ThinRedKitty [12:02 AM]: his style is

JamesShrugged [12:02 AM]: what does that mean?

ThinRedKitty [12:03 AM]: Well, it means that it is EXTREMELY realist, with a mystery

ThinRedKitty [12:03 AM]: and the mystery involves weird supernatural occurences

JamesShrugged [12:04 AM]: oh

JamesShrugged [12:04 AM]: that sounds pretty neat

ThinRedKitty [12:04 AM]: The last one was about a Wild Sheep CHase

ThinRedKitty [12:04 AM]: He was searching for this Special Sheep, because some company blackmailed him

ThinRedKitty [12:05 AM]: And they said we will shut your company down if you dont comply to find this special sheep

JamesShrugged [12:05 AM]: hehe

ThinRedKitty [12:05 AM]: the sheep had a star on it

ThinRedKitty [12:05 AM]: And he found out that sheep was like an alien sheep, it would inhabit a person like a parasite

ThinRedKitty [12:05 AM]: To fulfill something, but didnt know what

ThinRedKitty [12:05 AM]: If the sheep decided to leave the persons body, they felt hopeless and empty

ThinRedKitty [12:06 AM]: like part of their soul was ripped out

JamesShrugged [12:06 AM]: wierd

ThinRedKitty [12:07 AM]: yeah its strange

ThinRedKitty [12:07 AM]: Reading his stories makes you feel kinda depressed about Life in general

ThinRedKitty [12:07 AM]: But usually outcome isnt HAPPY, but makes you feel neither happy nor sad

ThinRedKitty [12:07 AM]: Nor apathetic

ThinRedKitty [12:07 AM]: Just kinda content

JamesShrugged [12:07 AM]: hmmm

ThinRedKitty [12:08 AM]: i like realism

ThinRedKitty [12:08 AM]: my fave

JamesShrugged [12:08 AM]: ayn wrote romantic realism

ThinRedKitty [12:08 AM]: neato

JamesShrugged [12:08 AM]: its my favorite

JamesShrugged [12:09 AM]: there are only a few authors who do it anymore

JamesShrugged [12:09 AM]: a famous one was victor hugo

ThinRedKitty [12:09 AM]: ahhh yeah

JamesShrugged [12:09 AM]: the hunchback of notre dame

ThinRedKitty [12:09 AM]: I like Modern

JamesShrugged [12:10 AM]: i can't believe you haven't read any of Miss Rands fiction

ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: I knowww

ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: I will

ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: Hey I gtg study

ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: Nice talking you!!!

JamesShrugged [12:10 AM]: alright

JamesShrugged [12:10 AM]: i was very nice talking to you again amelia

JamesShrugged [12:10 AM]: goodnight

ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: hehee thanks James!

ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: ciao!

JamesShrugged [12:10 AM]:

ThinRedKitty signed off at 12:10 AM

[kenstauffer]

ThinRedKitty [10:37 PM]:  ME TOO!

Argument by capitalization.

ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]:  lol

ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]:  brb

Argument by abbreviation

ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]:  nm, my roommie in tha bathroom

Argument by urination.

Now you're guilty.... The worst one of all...

JamesShrugged [10:54 PM]: 

Argument by smiley.

[the tortured one]

recently i was having a debate with an old friend of mine about government programs like welfare, and she said "well, i can't say anything against government programs because my mom was really poor and we wouldn't have had anywhere to live or anything to eat if it hadn't been for the government"

I really didn't know what to say to this except, "well maybe your mom would have had enough money if the government did tax 25% from each check.."

how could this argument be classified, and what is the proper response?

Any government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

I mean, if they throw enough money at the situation, I am sure at least some of it goes to help people. It doesn't change the fact that how the government obtained the money was immoral.

as for arguing against the person with emotional ties, ask them why their mother was poor in the first place. Find out what happened. Ask them why their mother couldn't get a job to earn a living. More often than not, it's government interference that stifles growth and destroys jobs. Explain that in addition to the 25% that was stolen from her every year, explain to her that things like minimum wage laws and regulatory jobs typically have the opposite desired effect.

I find people who were helped by the government tend to be it's most ardent supporters.

[JMeganSnow]

Any government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

Not if Paul has any sense, it can't. Because then he knows that it will rob HIM to pay Peter the next day.

P.S. I edited the topic title for spelling.

Edited April 12, 2005 by JMeganSnow

[kilgoretrout]

I think there might be something seriously wrong with that girl...

"I don't really like chocolate"....

you might want to have her head checked out

[Bobby66]

Argument from ancedote, or personal experience. I would respond by pointing out that her same argument could be said by a white southern slave owner to defend slavery.

"well, I can't say anything against slavery because I was really poor and I wouldn't have had any money if it hadn't been for the cheap slave labor"

Ingenious! It not only points out the immorality, but does so by illuminating the fact that others are being made slaves by the government, principally just as in slavery. Any advocate of socialism that condemns slavery will be provoced by this and forced to reflect.

[Som Guy]

Sometmes you just need to say that if the person cannot support themselves without the goverment's help they really shouldn't be alive. You can't be reluctant to say that if someone cannot create the means for thier continued existance they will and should die. All this country gives you is a right to life, not the means for it. This does mean that people will die, but only people who cannot live by thier own ability.

[Bobby66]

Sometmes you just need to say that if the person cannot support themselves without the goverment's help they really shouldn't be alive.  You can't be reluctant to say that if someone cannot create the means for thier continued existance they will and should die.  All this country gives you is a right to life, not the means for it.  This does mean that people will die, but only people who cannot live by thier own ability.

But could you uphold that your view if you some day turned blind and deaf by desease or if you were born this way? You couldn't create the means for your existance and would or should die then, as you are saying.

[skap35]

But could you uphold that your view if you some day turned blind and deaf by desease or if you were born this way? You couldn't create the means for your existance and would or should die then, as you are saying.

If that were my fate then I would hope someone would help me. But I would have no right to force others to help me. Most rational people are compassionate enough to help others when they can...without being forced to do so through welfare programs.

I would be perfectly willing to *voluntarily* help such a person but if I choose not to give up some of my personal property (money, food, etc...) to help the person then that is nobody's business but my own.

[Bold Standard]

I can't say anything against armed robbery, because I wouldn't have anywhere to live or anything to eat if it wasn't for jumping trains.

Or getting the government to do it for me?

"well, i can't say anything against government programs because my mom was really poor and we wouldn't have had anywhere to live or anything to eat if it hadn't been for the government"

how could this argument be classified, and what is the proper response?

[Bold Standard]

if it wasn't for jumping trains.

Oops, I meant to say "holding up trains," like Butch Cassite used to do. Jumping trains is just stowing away on a train without paying for it. Still immoral, but not as powerful of an analogy.

[JamesConnolly]

recently i was having a debate with an old friend of mine about government programs like welfare, and she said "well, i can't say anything against government programs because my mom was really poor and we wouldn't have had anywhere to live or anything to eat if it hadn't been for the government"

I really didn't know what to say to this except, "well maybe your mom would have had enough money if the government did tax 25% from each check.."

how could this argument be classified, and what is the proper response?

Hello, I'm new here. This seemed like a nice play to do a first post, so here goes:

The proper response to that argument would be that she wouldn't be poor if it wasn't for the government. You see, the existence of a government breeds dependance upon it by it's constituents - the 'power' of a government doesn't rest in the authority vested in it by its population, but rather the amount of exploitation that allows those in 'authority' to assume a type of control over the masses. The government leaders have the money and control more or less how that money is appropriated to the people, so therefore the people depend on the government and more or less bend to its will.

But there's a major problem with that, as is apparent in the amount of poverty and corruption that plagues the nation. Why are their poor people? Why is there corruption? The answer lies in the nature of the system: when life is reduced down to a commodity, which must then be bought back from those who stole it by those from whom it was taken; when competition is the leading factor in the drive of a worker; when success and wealth are measured in terms of production and consumotion - when these things are the very essence of a thing, then there will be two major poles in society. On one hand, you have those who directly benefit from the wealth produced. They are the landlords, the CEO's, the business managers, the stock brokers, etc. On the other hand, you have those who suffer because of the accumulation of wealth into the minority of the population. Among these you have the miners, the welders, the area managers, and all-in-all the common working class person who slaves away day to day for another person, producing a vast amount of wealth of which only a small portion will be allotted to him or her.

And what's more, the existence of these government systems, while some may argue that they seem to alleviate certain circumstances of pain and poverty, really serve the purpose of those in power. Welfare keeps the poor poor. Food stamps keep the hungry hungry. All the while, some rich bureaucrat is living it up in a mansion somewhere, enjoying his/her payraise and taxcut, sucking the life out of each and every one of us.

So how should you respond to your friend? By explaining the inherent corruption of a system whose very existence perpetuates that corruption, and from there working to find a solution.

Andrew