irrational love

[general-lz]

i would like to ask for a question which haunts me for while: how can rationality, according objectivism, deal with completely irrational falling in love, for a person, who is, for example, completely anti-mind and anti-reason and interested only in what to wear, etc... And only thing that is special about him or her is his/her pretty face.

One knows that there is no point in any romantic relationship with such a person, except for the pleasure of touching and kissing that pretty body, but simply can not stop thinking of him/her...

How to rationally deal with something like this?

[Mimpy]

I think it is a question of your values. If you value certain traits in a partner, such as honesty, openness to reason, humor, etc, a person with those qualities will naturally attract you. If you do not truly hold those values, then you might find yourself passionately attracted to others who do embody your current values.

Also, the situation you are describing does not sound like "love" to me. It is akin to how I feel about David Beckham. It does not sound like love.

Edited April 12, 2008 by Mimpy

[EC]

What is being described above sounds more like lust rather than love.

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

i would like to ask for a question which haunts me for while: how can rationality, according Objectivism, deal with completely irrational falling in love, for a person, who is, for example, completely anti-mind and anti-reason

I would agree with the previous replies that this is probably not actual love. There is such a thing as psychological projection, whereby if one observes a physically beautiful person one assumes a set of values for them that matches their physical beauty. That is actually one way pornography works -- in essence, one imagines them as being perfect in every way because they are physically beautiful.

But in actuality, physical beauty in and of itself implies no consciously held values on the part of the beautiful person. One might be born with a physically perfect body, but one's soul is self-made via conscious choice.

The key to dealing with this phenomena is to find out what her values actually are, and base one's emotional response to her on these facts, rather than on what you want or hope her to be.

Also, sense of life might be involved. She might come across as full of life and vibrant with loving life, but have nothing to back that up aside from her generalized emotional response to being alive. It is possible to fall in love with someone strictly on sense of life, but if her values don't match yours, and you focus on the overall facts about her rather than on her emotional reactions to things, you emotional reaction to her will follow. In other words, she might have a very positive sense of life, but be intellectually shallow and not be interested in ideas; in which case, if you are rational and take ideas seriously, your emotional reaction to her will decrease over time.

In other words, in both cases, go by the facts instead of your initial emotional reaction. I'm not saying repress your emotions, but get the facts before you become committed to loving her

[Alfa]

I think there might be something subtle, yet obvious, that you are overlooking here. It could be related to either lust or love.

In case of lust there must be something about him/her that creates this very strong attraction, and just blows your mind away. To really determine this we must really know more about the context and wether it's a man or a woman, because it works a bit differently for both. However, there's one fundamental principle behind this and it's about projecting a higher value. Let's say, for example, that it's a woman. First you have her physical beauty, and then it's her persona. If she's that kind of woman she probably has a bit of an attitude, like she's unreachable and you can never have her - she's just to perfect and beautiful for you. This is of course not necessarily communicated directly, it can be very sublte.

So in this scenario you might have a woman that projects an extremely high value. And i'm not saying it must be something obvious like a bitchy attitude or something like that, she could very well be friendly and polite with you. But, there would be something about her that sends out these subtle signals, and it drives men crazy.

This could work just as well if it's a man, it's just that the acting would a little different.

Either way, this works by making you want to pursue a higher value. Higher, in this case, means higher than you. Nothing strange about that. It's just your subconcious mind seeing something of very high value and responding by telling your concious mind that; "aah, must have that!". The problem is that you will be selling yourself to get it, if you in fact try to pursue it. So if we assume that this person does not correspond very well to your values, then you would be acting unselfish and irrational.

If you think that this scenario corresponds to your situation, what you need to do then is to recognize that you are the highest value in your life. If you are a woman only the best of men could get you, and that is if you let them. A man must see that he can have any woman he desires, but that he only wants the best - he not only know what he want's, but he also knows he deserves it. So if you are caught in these irrational feelings of lust and attraction and don't know how to deal with them, you need to re-frame your mind so that you put yourself as the highest value in your life.

---

I hope that all made sense to you, it's kind of difficult to put into writing but I think I atleast got the general idea across. Now, on the other hand, we might be dealing with actual feelings of love. In that first scenario we would have strong feelings without any solid value judgements. The feeling could be mistaken for love, but when you think about it, it does not correspond to any actual values that you hold. Whatever he/she does seems to portray a high value, but you cannot rationally find any substance to that. In this other case, were we are talking about actual love and not just lust, it would be the other way round. What if there's something about him/her that really appeals to your deepest values, but you are just unable to conciously and rationally recognize it?

There could be some ideas and values that you have accepted, without knowing, and he/she just appeals to them. If this is the case it's a darn difficult situation, because you would sort of be looking for something that you don't know is there... Perhaps this is best solved by getting to know the person better, and see if you find something.

I've been in a similar situation myself. I met this girl I was just instantly attracted to, which was a bit weird for me because she really was not "my type". That is, the first impression I got was that she was this beautiful, shallow and cold type of person. Her dressing revealed she was very into fashion, and when I meet that kind of women I often assume they sort of have the whole attitude to go with it. You know, all of their lives have been about looking good and they have always had men chasing them, so they are kind of jaded and tend to look down on men(and often less attractive women). I like beautiful and attractive women, it's just that certain kind that I don't want.

Anyway, in this case I felt instantly attracted, and a little later I found that there was just something in her eyes that I recognized but could not exactly put my finger on. I knew I wanted her, but I had to get to know her better first.

So this is a lady that comes in a beautiful package that she takes good care of. She's the kind of person that can go happy for a whole day because she made a good deal on a pair of Gucci shoes. If, on the other hand, she has a bad hair day... well, that's unlikely to happen but... I think you know what i'm getting at. Despite all this though, I found out that she's the kind of person that fled to this country from a war, and passed law school in a language she still has a little difficulty handling. She's the kind of person that would go to work even if she was near dying, because it's boring to lay in bed all day and not do anything. Not to mention she could go through hell and still keep a positive sense of life. Simply put, she's intelligent, driven, tough as hell and she just has an incredible spirit.

Without going into any further detail, what I found out here is that many of theese characteristics were communicated subtly right from the beginning. You know, there are just those small things that you sort of notice subconciously, and you get attracted without really being able to put your finger on why. They are things that are there but you don't really notice, unless you are very perceptive. Here your initial feelings may be contradicted by your first judgement, because the feelings correspond to facts you are not yet conciously aware of. In such a case you need to get more facts and check your premises. Explore the whole situation further(and try to make it an enjoyable experience for both of you - who knows where that might lead? ).

Edited May 1, 2008 by Alfa

[DragonMaci]

A man must see that he can have any woman he desires, but that he only wants the best - he not only know what he want's

No, he can't. There are many woman that would not let them have him and many of them for good reason. And that goes for any man, even the most rational man.

Without going into any further detail, what I found out here is that many of theese characteristics were communicated subtly right from the beginning. You know, there are just those small things that you sort of notice subconciously, and you get attracted without really being able to put your finger on why. They are things that are there but you don't really notice, unless you are very perceptive. Here your initial feelings may be contradicted by your first judgement, because the feelings correspond to facts you are not yet conciously aware of. In such a case you need to get more facts and check your premises. Explore the whole situation further(and try to make it an enjoyable experience for both of you - who knows where that might lead? ).

I know from experience that when you have an attraction to a woman and you are not sure why that you can figure out why with introspection. I have done it a few times. Each time I discovered why I felt that way and that it made more sense than it seemed to at first.

[Alfa]

No, he can't. There are many woman that would not let them have him and many of them for good reason. And that goes for any man, even the most rational man.

So, no matter what he does there are women that are just impossible to get? Why?

My point here is that one should act with the confidence of your own ability, that whatever you desire can be won. Of course i'm not talking about completely irrational desries, and one would certainly fail many times before getting there. However, a man of ability is in control of his destiny. In this case, he knows he has options and that he can get what he desires.

The idea is really to not give away any of your power, confidence and self-esteem. That is what often happens with very attractive women. Men want them so desperately that they become "the one", far above all other women, so the men fall at their knees and ask them to "please like!". And in this case emotions run wild, you want her for no good reasons, there's just "something". This can be a very difficult spell to break, and that's why i'm writing the above.

I know from experience that when you have an attraction to a woman and you are not sure why that you can figure out why with introspection. I have done it a few times. Each time I discovered why I felt that way and that it made more sense than it seemed to at first.

I'm sure it's possible, you only need the right amount of facts to be able to judge things correctly.

[DragonMaci]

So, no matter what he does there are women that are just impossible to get? Why?

No, it is that the woman will not want him to get her. Not all woman will be interested in any particular man.

My point here is that one should act with the confidence of your own ability

Well, of course one should.

However, a man of ability is in control of his destiny.

Yes, but he is not in control of whether or not a woman lets a man get her, she is.

In this case, he knows he has options and that he can get what he desires.

In the case of women he can only get her if she lets him. otherwise he cannot. He cannot have a woman that does not want him to get her.

The idea is really to not give away any of your power, confidence and self-esteem. That is what often happens with very attractive women. Men want them so desperately that they become "the one", far above all other women, so the men fall at their knees and ask them to "please like!". And in this case emotions run wild, you want her for no good reasons, there's just "something". This can be a very difficult spell to break, and that's why i'm writing the above.

Yeah, well, such behaviour is indeed bad for you. It is something I am proud to say I have never done and never will.

I'm sure it's possible, you only need the right amount of facts to be able to judge things correctly.

Well, since we are talking about introspection on why you feel as you do, the facts are the reasons for your feelings.

[Alfa]

No, it is that the woman will not want him to get her. Not all woman will be interested in any particular man.

It's not at all uncommon that the woman is very uninterested at first, but later falls for the man.

Yes, but he is not in control of whether or not a woman lets a man get her, she is.

In the case of women he can only get her if she lets him. otherwise he cannot. He cannot have a woman that does not want him to get her.

Well, of course there is this issue with free will - i'm not suggesting you can get around that. However, how you think and act will determine what she thinks of you and if she decides to let you have her(though i'm not saying one should act based on what someone else thinks of you).

Well, since we are talking about introspection on why you feel as you do, the facts are the reasons for your feelings.

True, however as I was saying sometimes you might be unaware of some of the facts.

[DragonMaci]

It's not at all uncommon that the woman is very uninterested at first, but later falls for the man.

Yes, but I am talking about cases where she never becomes interested. It happens.

Well, of course there is this issue with free will - i'm not suggesting you can get around that. However, how you think and act will determine what she thinks of you and if she decides to let you have her(though i'm not saying one should act based on what someone else thinks of you).

Well, that is a part of it, but there is more. Her decision will also be based on whether or not you and her share enough of her most important values, both optional ones and philosophical ones.

True, however as I was saying sometimes you might be unaware of some of the facts.

That is what the introspection I was talking about is for - to find the facts. I know from experience that if you don't know the facts, ie, why you like a woman, you can introspect and find those facts. They are there in your mind whether they are subconscious or conscious. That means they can be found, though sometimes you have to be very patient, as it can take a long time to find them sometimes. I have always been good at introspection (I remember introspecting quite successfully on love as young as 18, though it was on if I loved the girl not why), but it can still take me a while to introspect on such matters. Sometimes it takes several sessions of introspection, sometimes spanning several days to a week, maybe more.

[general-lz]

I would agree with the previous replies that this is probably not actual love. There is such a thing as psychological projection....

The key to dealing with this phenomena is to find out what her values actually are, and base one's emotional response to her on these facts, rather than on what you want or hope her to be.

Also, sense of life might be involved. She might come across as full of life and vibrant with loving life, but have nothing to back that up aside from her generalized emotional response to being alive.... if you are rational and take ideas seriously, your emotional reaction to her will decrease over time.

In other words, in both cases, go by the facts instead of your initial emotional reaction. I'm not saying repress your emotions, but get the facts before you become committed to loving her

I can agree with this. I think that the sense of life is what is really involved - and it is just a matter of time and will to find some inner qualities of the object of "love". if it appear that she isn't anything else than only a joy of being alive, without any rational base, the "love" would decrease in time (it the man is rational - if he is irrational, her irrationality wouldn't matter to him at all).

I think this explanation is the best.