stephen_speicher Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 I have been a prolific poster to this forum and I want to make a public statement in that regard. Unbeknownst to me -- with no notice or warning -- a moderator, NIJamesHughes, has modified the content of some posts of mine. I am only aware of this fact because someone else brought it to my attention. I have no idea what content of mine in any other posts has been changed. Therefore, for the record, I want it to be known that no one should take the content of any previous postings bearing my name on this forum, to necessarily be reflective of my actual views. I take my ideas, and my reputation, very seriously. I refuse to participate on a forum where what I write can be changed without any notice or acknowledgement to me. I am leaving this forum immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
source Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 It happened in a discussion in "Basic Questions" forum, in "Defending Ayn Rand against attacks" thread. I don't know why YOUR posts were changed, since it was my warn level that was raised. And even so, I don't think this moderator should have changed the content of any posts whatsoever. If he wanted to warn me of breaking the rule, he could have done so in the same way that another moderator did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-contradictor Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 From the edit, it is not clear what the moderator meant. Was it intended to be a warning to another poster (in which case why would he modify Mr. Speicher's posts instead of just posting the warning himself), or was it intended to be a warning to Mr. Speicher (in which case I think a PM would have been much more appropriate.) Either way, I don't think the "edit by" line quite cuts it when you change the content of the entire post. Mr. Speicher should have been notified. Since he was not, it seems to suggest that the warning was intended for another poster. Which leads me back to: why change his posts at all? All I can say is . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeganSnow Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 It grieves me to lose your knowledge and intelligence, but the forum rules do state that the mods may change your posts. I think they're asked to note the editing, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowzer Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 The quality of a public forum lies in the intellectual qualities of its members. Mr. Speicher accounted for 6.5% of the total posts on this forum (more than any other member) and he was its intellectual fountainhead. What a loss... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirjin Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 I am only a young Objectivist, I am almost 22 years of age. I am one of those silent lurkers on this forum, I don't post much but I read a lot of the posts on here. I really respect you and your knowledge Stephen. It is a great loss to see you go. Could you possibly let me and other like-minded people know as to which forum you will call home next, if you do decide to move to another forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thales Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Stephen brings a wealth of knowledge and insight to this forum. In my view, he's the best poster here. Rules have to be followed, yes, but I understand fully his response, since he was not given a warning, and his post was virtually stamped with a big red stamp, which is quite disprespectful. I hope things get straightened out and Stephen stays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedymastyr Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 The quality of a public forum lies in the intellectual qualities of its members. Mr. Speicher accounted for 6.5% of the total posts on this forum (more than any other member) and he was its intellectual fountainhead. What a loss... Stephen brings a wealth of knowledge and insight to this forum. In my view, he's the best poster here. I second both of those, and would like to add that with ~9 posts/day at that quality, averaged over about 3/4 of a year, the value he's provided people visiting this forum is incalculable. I don't disagree with him about leaving--his reasons are perfectly clear and valid. Regardless, though, it is a very big loss to the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramKatori Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 I'm curious why Stephen does not mention how the owner of the list responded when this was brought to his attention. Since Stephen does not read the forum any more, we can now only get one side of the story; still, I'd be interested in seeing the owner's reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIJamesHughes Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Mr. Speicher's post's that were deleted were in violation of the forum rules, specifically the rules that I replaced the post with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramKatori Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Mr. Speicher's post's that were deleted were in violation of the forum rules, specifically the rules that I replaced the post with. Now I'm really curious. I will go search for it, but a link from here would help others who come this way. PS: Mr. Speicher's did help many people who had questions about Objectivism on this forum, and he will be missed in this regard. However, personally, I have never found his posts insightful once they get beyond Objectivism-101. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowzer Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Well I did read at least one of Mr. Speicher's edited posts before they were destroyed and if the moderators on this forum are going to interpret Rule #2 that liberally (and without warning) then Mr. Speicher won't be the only person leaving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeus Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Mr. Speicher's post's that were deleted were in violation of the forum rules, specifically the rules that I replaced the post with. Well, even if that were the case, knowing that Mr. Speicher is an elderly, highly-accomplished citizen who is now in retirement; knowing that he was benevolently engaged in teaching and explaining advanced Objectivist concepts to the younger people here; knowing that his level of intellectual consistency was extremely high; knowing that you cannot explain these difficult concepts yourself, couldn't you have sent him a courtesy PM on the matter? Couldn't you have chosen better here? Well, we have lost the benefit of his wisdom. If this matter is not rectified, the board's death knell may have been sounded. My advice: you tender an unreserved apology to him (which he may or may not read or respond to), but at least you would have shown some kind of remorse. The quicker the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsy Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Mr. Speicher's post's that were deleted were in violation of the forum rules, specifically the rules that I replaced the post with. This "moderator" not only went back and deleted a post he didn't like, he EDITED it. Unlike a deleted post, the original post is now totally unavailable to everyone, including the original author and the other moderators, and there is no way to determine whether the "moderator's" actions were rationally justified or not. The resulting posting seems as if it were written by the original poster when, in fact, the original posting was completely replaced by the words of the "moderator." If a moderator can do that, in violation of the intellectual property rights and reputation of the author, what's next? Re-writing "The Fountainhead" and publishing it as Ayn Rand's? In addition, he did not notify the original poster. How is a contributor to this forum to know what a moderator might be doing to their previous postings and what words he may be ascribing to them without their knowledge? I'll be damned if I'd allow ANYBODY to edit my work without my knowledge and my consent and present it to the world as mine. This is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE behavior on the part of a moderator and, if the forum is not changed to make this kind of "moderation" impossible, I'll be leaving too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 (edited) Unbeknownst to me -- with no notice or warning -- a moderator, NIJamesHughes, has modified the content of some posts of mine... I refuse to participate on a forum where what I write can be changed without any notice or acknowledgement to me. I am leaving this forum immediately. I don't know what happened originally, but it appears that a moderator did not alter the contents of your post so much as he removed them and replaced them with a message of his own (about the forum rule which he thought was violated), which he clearly marked as such. Now of course, there is plenty else wrong with what has happened, but if the sole or primary reason you are leaving is because you think your statements are being altered, then I think you should return. But like I said, you have other reasons. I do not remember the original version posts in question, so I can't comment on if they are in fact against forum rules. Of course, he said he was leaving immediately and so I don't expect him to see this post. But perhaps someone could pass it on to him? (edited for clarity) Edited January 23, 2005 by Inspector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgessLau Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Mr. Speicher's post's that were deleted were in violation of the forum rules, specifically the rules that I replaced the post with. As of today, David Veksler has approved my request to be moderator for the Basic Questions forum, where this mess occurred coincidentally during the transition. Most moderators in ObjectivismOnline issue a cautionary statement through PM for a first-noticed offense. I do if I think the poster has made only a mild error (for example sarcasm) but has otherwise contributed to the forum. (The same would usually apply to someone very young or very new to ObjectivismOnline.) If the violation is egregious or repeated, then a formal warning level increase and even deletion of the whole post, not just its content (which would leave the poster's name on the post), are appropriate. For the moment, I am bewildered, but I will continue to try to determine what the facts are and what should be done to seek justice. Unfortunately I have been inadvertently cut off from access to the Moderator's Forum which is where these issues are fought out. Basic Questions moderator, Burgess Laughlin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-contradictor Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Mr. Speicher's post's that were deleted were in violation of the forum rules, specifically the rules that I replaced the post with. This is not the point. The point is that you did not inform Mr. Speicher that you had changed his posts. You also did not point out that you had deleted the entire post. You did not edit his post, you deleted it and then used his name to post rule number two.. The "edit by" line does not cut it in this case. It is completely unacceptable to post something in another persons name, which is essentially what you did by not alerting anyone, including the original author of the post, that you had replaced it in its entirety. I agree with Betsy and others who have said that this behavior is completely and totally unacceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsy Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Mr. Speicher's post's that were deleted were in violation of the forum rules, specifically the rules that I replaced the post with. In addition to replacing Stephen's words with your own on two postings made yesterday, you did the same thing to another post on that topic made on Jan 8 2005, 09:50 PM -- FIFTEEN DAYS AGO !! We can't go back and check his 2500 postings, so what OTHER postings have you "edited"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed from OC Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Shame on NIJamesHughes for this blatant and unjust abuse of moderator privileges. I used to value this forum as much as HBL. I daily looked forward to reading discussions on several fascinating topics, as well as contributing my own thoughts and questions. I enjoyed getting to know so many other Objectivists across the globe. This incident has given me pause to reconsider the terms under which I participate. Will what happened to Stephen befall me as well? I want to see the owners and other moderators of this forum take action to fix this situation. NOBODY should have the ability to modify the posts of others without their consent. It leaves open the possiblity of abuse, in which the words of one person are put in the mouth of another. I don't blame Stephen for leaving. He deserves an apology for what happened, at minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daughter of Time Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 I too am one of the many individuals who up to the present has not had much to say, but who has been avidly reading the content. How wonderful that such a forum has been created and that the level of discussion (with a few notable exceptions) has been so rational, informative, and respectful. It has been particularly interesting for me to see all of the young minds who have newly found Objectivism and who are seeking discourse with like-minded individuals. The greatest value of the forum, even for someone like myself who has studied Objectivism for many years, has been the clarifications, guidance, and general information that other more knowledgable and experienced members have contributed. Foremost of those from whom I have gained valuable insights and who has challenged my own thinking on difficult issues has been Stephen Speicher. This forum has come to be more than just a chat room. In the short time it has been up, it seems to me to have become a valuable "institution". There are so few venues where Objectivists can come together in a benevolent setting to share ideas, enjoy each other's company, and find encouragement. Let's not screw it up!! If this were my business and a major client was treated disrespectfully and inappropriately and took away his patronage of my establishment, I would find out who was responsible and hold them accountable, what was wrong with our system that allowed this to happen and fix it, and what would be required to win back my client's trust and do it. To David V: I assume you are " in charge" of the forum. I am grateful for this fabulous site and all of the great work behind the scenes which makes it work. This "crisis" calls for bold leadership to restore the integrity of the forum. I, like many others, will be watching to see how it is resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragnarhedin Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 The outrage against the moderator here seems a bit overblown. He is not instituting any new practice on this forum. In fact, last April I had an exchange with Stephen Speicher. In one post, I quoted a sentence of his and made a short reply. The moderator, RadCap, evidently found my reply to violate the rules, because he deleted it, but let my post stand with Mr. Speicher's quote and the moderator's addendum "Content edited by RadCap." In other words, much the same that has now happened to Mr. Speicher. Neither Mr. Speicher nor his wife had any objections whatsoever at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-contradictor Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 If in fact there was a violation of forum rules (we shall never know now because it is impossible to retrieve the original post) then there is a much more respectful and correct way to point this out. This is demonstrated by RationalCop's post at this link: http://forum.ObjectivismOnline.com/index.p...485entry69485 I found that link while doing a search for any other occurences of posts being replaced with forum rules. I found no others than the ones already mentioned on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed from OC Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 If this were my business and a major client was treated disrespectfully and inappropriately and took away his patronage of my establishment, I would find out who was responsible and hold them accountable, what was wrong with our system that allowed this to happen and fix it, and what would be required to win back my client's trust and do it. Very well said. I agree 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Capitalist Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Oh my freaking god, I am immediately addressing this issue in the moderators forum, and am ready to take severe steps regarding my participation if the facts are as Stephen has presented them (and I have never seen him do otherwise). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Im going to throw in my two cent. I don't post a great deal, and when I do it tends to be for a short sustained period - but I do still follow the forum in my busier moments. Of the diverse range of voices and ideas sounding out across this forum the Speicher's contributions have given me the most to think about - whether it be finding new sources, challenging my views or encouraging me, through example, to discipline my arguments. Stephen's posts may account for a full 6.5% of the forum, but I'd argue his effect upon the overall standard and quality of discussion in this forum is substantially greater. I hope this will be resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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