DragonMaci Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 This is truly horrific: http://www.cis.org.au/executive_highlights...08/eh60508.html. Not only is the government forcing employers to contribute to the savings of their employees and redistributing stolen money*, but they will soon be spending more on KiwiSaver than the Defence Force! * This quote explains how they do so: The government provides a NZ$1000 kickstart and a NZ$1000 annual tax credit, and soon employers will have to contribute 4% of the employee’s salary, tax-free. It is a shame the author of the article fails to realise the evil of this scheme., as illustrated by this comment: Known as “KiwiSaver,” the scheme is voluntary but generous subsidies mean that only the very poor or very foolish will not sign up. There are a lot of people like myself that won't sign up on principle. I refuse to have savings at the expense of my fellow taxpayers and my employer. I don't want unearned money. I would rather save my money without any force involved. I would rather use a truly private scheme, not this fascist scheme. I am not the only one. Furthermore, he focuses on the pragmatic side of it instead of the moral side. But my main complaint is not with his article, but rather with the fact the government will soon spend more money on this fascist pile of excrement than our Defence Force. Does any one know of anything like this happening elsewhere? Or is NZ the only nation with the government spending more on subsidising savings than on its Defence Force? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 For those that want to know here is a page explaining KiwiSaver: http://www.kiwisaver.govt.nz/benefits/benefits/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gags Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 What a ridiculous, overly complex (and immoral) program. Statism run amuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 What a ridiculous, overly complex (and immoral) program. Statism run amuck. That is a compliment for KiwiSaver, but accurate nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grames Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Its immoral, but not as impractical as the US Social Security program, which in the next decade will begin to enforce inter-generational slavery on a massive scale. I would go so far as to say I would rather we had KiwiSaver here in the US instead of what we have. Consider yourself lucky, it could be worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 (edited) Its immoral, but not as impractical as the US Social Security program, which in the next decade will begin to enforce inter-generational slavery on a massive scale. I would go so far as to say I would rather we had KiwiSaver here in the US instead of what we have. This is not an alternative to social security. We have social security as well, so that problem also exists here. But now we also have KiwiSaver, which will make the enforced inter-generational slavery worse than it already was, possibly worse than in the USA. Consider yourself lucky, it could be worse. Given what I just said are you so sure about that? Edited July 9, 2008 by DragonMaci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grames Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 This is not an alternative to social security. We have social security as well, so that problem also exists here. But now we also have KiwiSaver, which will make the enforced inter-generational slavery worse than it already was, possibly worse than in the USA. Given what I just said are you so sure about that? I take it back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I take it back! I thought you might do so. I am not sure what social security is like in the USA, but here it is set to about 65% of the average wage, rising to 66% soon. I am not sure of the exact figures, but they are close to that. And now we have KiwiSaver to add to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Radiaki Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Have you considered signing up for the program, then spending every cent of "benefit" it provides to promote true captalism and oppose the government that instituted it? My grasp of Objectivist ethics in this particular situation seems shakey to me, so if anyone cares to comment on my thinking, please feel free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Have you considered signing up for the program, then spending every cent of "benefit" it provides to promote true captalism and oppose the government that instituted it? My grasp of Objectivist ethics in this particular situation seems shakey to me, so if anyone cares to comment on my thinking, please feel free. I have not for two reasons. 1. I will not use a voluntary scheme where my employer is forced to contribute like that. 2. You aren't allowed to access until you are 65 or 5 years after you sign up, whichever comes last. Since I am going to move overseas sometime in the next few years that means I will never get access to the money. On the ethics of it Rand once said that it is moral to accept things like grants, but only if you oppose the system. She said it is getting back some of the money they stole off you - a small fraction of it. However, in this case there is also the theft from your employers to consider. Okay, they get the contribution as a tax deduction, but it is still theft. So, I'd say it is immoral to use KiwiSaver. They are also turning your employer, banks, and the financial institutions (the latter two are the ones that provide the KiwiSaver services) into fascists saving schemes and fascist welfare re-distributors - unless the employer has no employees with KiwiSaver and the bank/financial institution has no KiwiSaver services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinDW78 Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 (edited) So all the employers will lower everyone's salaries in order to compensate. That's what I would do. Edited July 9, 2008 by KevinDW78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 So all the employers will lower everyone's salaries in order to compensate. That's what I would do. Some tried it. Not many, but a few. But the government says they broke the law. Sadly, that is true - the government foresaw such happening and made it illegal under KiwiSaver law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gags Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Some tried it. Not many, but a few. But the government says they broke the law. Sadly, that is true - the government foresaw such happening and made it illegal under KiwiSaver law. As an employer, my response to this would simply be to freeze pay for several years. The people who want a raise can petition their government for one. Yikes, the government might actually order that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 As an employer, my response to this would simply be to freeze pay for several years. The people who want a raise can petition their government for one. I highly doubt many employers would do that since they don't have your principles. However, either are doing or will do something similar, but most for monetary reasons rather than on principle. Yikes, the government might actually order that! They already have in an indirect sense. In the last three years the minimum wage went from $10.20 to $12 April 1 this year. They have not done it in the sense you mean though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Radiaki Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 I highly doubt many employers would do that since they don't have your principles. However, either are doing or will do something similar, but most for monetary reasons rather than on principle. They already have in an indirect sense. In the last three years the minimum wage went from $10.20 to $12 April 1 this year. They have not done it in the sense you mean though. Ontario's minimum wage will very soon be $10.00. I'm actually giving a speech about the evils of minimum wage laws soon... for a public speaking class. Still, I'm excited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 (edited) Ontario's minimum wage will very soon be $10.00. I'm actually giving a speech about the evils of minimum wage laws soon... for a public speaking class. Still, I'm excited. There are good chances it could become $15 in NZ by 2011. I remember when it was $9 and I easily got a job a few months out of school. Now I have more experience and more skills and I cannot get a job at the $12 minimum nor could I at the last two rates of $10.20 and $11.25. Edit: Added a comment. Edited July 10, 2008 by DragonMaci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gags Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Ontario's minimum wage will very soon be $10.00. I'm actually giving a speech about the evils of minimum wage laws soon... for a public speaking class. Still, I'm excited. In case you need a little more ammo for your speech, here's a recent Investor's Business Daily editorial on the effects of the recent minimum wage increases on US teenage unemployment: http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.a...297905680294211 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 There are good chances it could become $15 in NZ by 2011. I remember when it was $9 and I easily got a job a few months out of school. Now I have more experience and more skills and I cannot get a job at the $12 minimum nor could I at the last two rates of $10.20 and $11.25. Edit: Added a comment. The "minimum wage" in your country is more than I think the average low-skilled worker makes here of maybe 9 or 10 dollars under the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 The "minimum wage" in your country is more than I think the average low-skilled worker makes here of maybe 9 or 10 dollars under the table. Is that taking into account the exchange rate? Because NZ$12 is worth a lot less than US$12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinDW78 Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Some tried it. Not many, but a few. But the government says they broke the law. Sadly, that is true - the government foresaw such happening and made it illegal under KiwiSaver law. lol I get so amused when real life occurs right out of the pages of Atlas Shrugged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 lol I get so amused when real life occurs right out of the pages of Atlas Shrugged. What part of Atlas Shrugged? Sadly, I cannot recall right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Sadly, the other of the two major parties said they will not get rid of KiwiSaver and will instead only make "minor changes" - without saying what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gags Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 I'm afraid this is the sort of thing that the majority of the people want. At least they keep electing politicians who support this sort of redistributionist scheme. Let's face it, many people want something for nothing. They are happy to get the unearned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 I'm afraid this is the sort of thing that the majority of the people want. At least they keep electing politicians who support this sort of redistributionist scheme. Let's face it, many people want something for nothing. They are happy to get the unearned. Indeed. Over half a million have subscribed to the scheme since it was first created about a year ago. That is a lot for a nation of only 4.2 to 4.3 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonMaci Posted July 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 (edited) It turns out that it is not yet illegal to pay less to those that have KiwiSaver than those that do not - but it will be soon. Edited July 12, 2008 by DragonMaci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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