Greyhawk Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Hi I got lost in thought (make up your own joke here) and would like to know what an Objectivist would have to say on the following. Modern computer gaming is an art form, millions of dollars and experts from innumerable fields are used to create a product which is designed to utterly engross a person in a virtual world. The game designer is successful only insofar as they are able to persuade you to sacrifice other values - like moving out of your parents basement - for continuing the game. An unforseen effect of this is the number of people who choose to sacrifice their social lives and personal hygiene for the game. This has led to vast numbers of people suffering from a wide variety of problems, from social disorders to obesity. Now some game companies, like Nintendo, are encouraging users while playing to actually put the game down and get outside. I don't have a specific question here but wonder if anyone has any comments about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalBiker Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 The game designer is successful only insofar as they are able to persuade you to sacrifice other values - like moving out of your parents basement - for continuing the game. An unforseen effect of this is the number of people who choose to sacrifice their social lives and personal hygiene for the game. This has led to vast numbers of people suffering from a wide variety of problems, from social disorders to obesity Not to say that this doesn't happen, but I think that it is not necessarily true. As offered, without evidence, the premise is arbitrary. On the other hand, the game designer is successful only insofar as they make a sustainable product that brings in a worthwhile profit. Lots of people may spend their money on the product, but the assumption of how the use of their product impacts their daily lives must be supported. I think the big white elephant in the room of this particular scenario would be World of Warcraft, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grames Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 The game designer is successful only insofar as they are able to persuade you to sacrifice other values Any person or business selling anything is only successful to the extent that they make the sale. Making the sale means offering something better than other possibilities for using the spent time and money. That is not a sacrifice. If you think it is a sacrifice, then stop subscribing. No one other than the subscriber should be making that decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.S Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Video games and laziness, anti-social-(-ness? -ability?) etc don't come in a package. Not that you're attacking anyone, but I've had to defend myself from friends very often over this little point due to my WoW playing. It's a hobby, and like anything, should be taken in moderation (a point which Blizzard emphasizes in the loading screen once in awhile ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Ellison Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 I have an argument that defeats the OPs claim entirely: my parents don't have a basement, and the MMO companies hooked me anyway. While it's not even necessary to add that I had a girlfriend at the time, I will, just in case you wish to extend your claim to MMO's making people antisocial in their parents apartments, not just basements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ers Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) I suspect that Nintendo has a rational, profit driven motive behind this. Specifically, it generates good P.R. and in the end, furthers the company's self interest (rather than harming it). Now some game companies, like Nintendo, are encouraging users while playing to actually put the game down and get outside. Edited January 21, 2010 by ers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeganSnow Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 I suspect that Nintendo has a rational, profit driven motive behind this. Specifically, it generates good P.R. and in the end, furthers the company's self interest (rather than harming it). Nintendo? Nintendo makes console games (and consoles) not MMO's. I think you meant Blizzard. My housemate is a homebody, so he likes to have a semi-social activity that can absorb his attention and help him relax when he's away from work. He games with me and his other friends, but I/they are only available for short times a couple of days a week. For the past 14 years, he's played RetroMUD in his spare time, but Retro has been going through some serious arguments over management and in any case the community there is not very large. Then his company brought on a temporary guy to help him with his work and they became pretty good friends. So my housemate decided to pick up World of Warcraft and join this new friend's guild. He's been enjoying it and socializing with more new people than he's met in years, making new friends, futzing around with his beloved geeky computer stuff . . . I'm having a hard time seeing this as anything other than a good thing. We've even been spending less money because he doesn't want to go out to eat any more--dinner happens during prime raiding time. MMO's are a very cheap hobby that a lot of people get a lot of enjoyment from. (Contrast the number of hours you get for $20 a month vs. even ONE trip to the movie theater or dinner out--and I think Blizzard recently lowered their prices, even.) How is this a bad thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ers Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Actually I was responding to Greyhawk's original post/question. But I'm sure any similar strategies on the part of Blizzard are also fundamentally self-interested. Nintendo? Nintendo makes console games (and consoles) not MMO's. I think you meant Blizzard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.S Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 MMO's are a very cheap hobby that a lot of people get a lot of enjoyment from. (Contrast the number of hours you get for $20 a month vs. even ONE trip to the movie theater or dinner out--and I think Blizzard recently lowered their prices, even.) How is this a bad thing? I haven't counted, but I've probably saved a few thousand dollars over the last few years by playing WoW. It was only when I got a girlfriend/wife that I started hemorrhaging money....does that mean girlfriends are immoral? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZSorenson Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Any person or business selling anything is only successful to the extent that they make the sale. Making the sale means offering something better than other possibilities for using the spent time and money. That is not a sacrifice. If you think it is a sacrifice, then stop subscribing. No one other than the subscriber should be making that decision. True, but some people here may be subscribers, and can use this discussion to come to a more rational conclusion about their game playing. Not to diminish from you point, only adding/clarifying. About the main post, I think gaming is all about offering virtual values! Well, aesthetic values. Some games are good in that they let you fulfill your sense of being heroic in a world without heroism. My opinion is that this is actually good in the context of modern society. In the long-run I want to live a heroic life in reality, but given the anti-heroic society we live in (superheroes with weaknesses, come on!), virtual experiences teach us what heroism might be, and so we can more easily pursue it in realty. Some games offer bad values and aesthetics. Grand Theft Auto is fun because you rise out of the 'dumps' to enter the 'big-time dumps', and has that sense of heroism, but all in the context of destroying values and committing crime in a universe constructed as an intentional vacuum of values. To explain, most of the characters/authority figures/regular citizens of grand theft auto are pretty miserable and corrupt, it's a malevolent universe view of modern society. So, GTA is a bad virtual world. WoW isn't the only thing - remember Evercrack (Everquest)? I don't thing WoW is a positive value overall because it uses negative reinforcement. Each new level is harder and harder to reach, but requires the same, simple, repetitive approach to gain. In the end, you're just at the highest level. A proper virtual world worth valuing is one that offers a heroic conclusion, and a contextually significant plot. Brutal Legend is a recent one. Though your value is 'rock', the implicit values are freedom, individualism, and the pursuit/discovery of values themselves against those who oppose that freedom. Each enemy becomes more and more explicity 'evil', until in the end you win by the same virtue you've possessed heroically the entire time: the power of rock. Not a perfect game, but pretty good. Assassin's Creed is also okay. You seek revenge, which isn't good, but you also seek justice, and the truth and against its opponents. You also fight freedom boldy, as a super-individual that transcends whole squads of armored enemies. You also grow, and adapt into that role. It's sort of anti-climatic, but decent. Halo is good, if drawn out... Modern Warfare 2 is not, its value is as a mental diversion (tactics)... haven't played much else. They might not be MMO's but I'm responding to the idea of games as virtual/aesthetic values. I should also say that while the virtual values can replace real life values, they shouldn't if values can be obtained in real life with the time spent playing games. I suppose one redeeming aspect of MMO's is they allow user-created goals. Say, in EVE Online, you can set out to do something, and then achieve that one thing. This can provide a 'shot' of the feeling of accomplishment, if life isn't offering that, but you need it to keep pressing on. But you need to be rational about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackethan Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 If MMOs make people antisocial, obese, and unhygenic, then McDonald's makes people obese and carb-addicted, television makes people stupid, running in the morning makes you a yuppie, and liking ABBA makes you gay. Hint: none of these things are true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philosopher Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 An unforseen effect of this is the number of people who choose to sacrifice their social lives and personal hygiene for the game. This has led to vast numbers of people suffering from a wide variety of problems, from social disorders to obesity. I don't see it as a problem if even the vast majority of people decide to while away their lives playing computer games. It's only a problem if you think people have a duty to the state to work (or something like that), but really they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acoma Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 I haven't counted, but I've probably saved a few thousand dollars over the last few years by playing WoW. It was only when I got a girlfriend/wife that I started hemorrhaging money....does that mean girlfriends are immoral? Yes, and I can prove it mathematically. Time is money, and maintaining a relationship with a woman requires both time and money. If we concede for a moment (I don't, and I sincerely hope you don't either) that money is the root of all evil, then we get the following equations: Time=Money Money=√Evil Woman=Time*Money Woman=(√Evil)2 Woman=Evil There you are, mathematical proof. Now I have to go suck up to my girlfriend in case she sees this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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