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"Moshing" at concerts

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CptnChan
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Hi, this is my first post.

I'm 22 now, and as a teenager I used to go to a lot of rock, punk, and ska concerts. Moshing is very popular at concerts. If you don't know, moshing basically is a very primitive act of people pushing each other around (often violently) in the middle of the crowd.

When I was a teen it was very appealing. Probably a mix of it being something exciting and alot of teen angst/aggression being expelled through acting crazy. (I guess I could have done that with sports but, oh well).

Nowadays I don't go to as many shows, and I prefer not be really tired and sweaty afterwards, but a lot of rock and ska still makes me want to at least jump around. I don't really want to punch someone in the face anymore, but it can be very tempting to get in the crowd and jump around.

I've heard that hard rock causes an emotional reaction in people. That it puts your nerves on edge and makes you angry. I believe it. But is it wrong to put myself in the middle of a barely conscious crowd and jump around like a hippie at woodstock?

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Moshing doesn't have anything necessarily to do with collectivism. Collectivism is an ethical, political, and psychological concept dealing with epistemic method and value-judgments vis-a-vis the individual and society. That doesn't necessarily mean one should never enjoy music with others in such a way as moshing, or dancing, or whatnot.

The disagreement between Objectivism and the “mindless mud-wallowing” of a Woodstock crowd is with their philosophy, namely the immorality of subjectivism, emotionalism, hedonism, etc., not this specific activity in enjoying music as such. Their reasons for joining the mosh pit, so to speak, not the proposition that doing the “http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcfIGok1mMI” is intrinsically immoral. (See Rand: Return of the Primitive Chapter 4, “Apollo and Dionysus.”) Although, depending on your age and condition and so forth, it may indeed not be in your self-interest to engage in such activity.

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Moshing doesn't have anything necessarily to do with collectivism. Collectivism is an ethical, political, and psychological concept dealing with epistemic method and value-judgments vis-a-vis the individual and society. That doesn't necessarily mean one should never enjoy music with others in such a way as moshing, or dancing, or whatnot.

The disagreement between Objectivism and the “mindless mud-wallowing” of a Woodstock crowd is with their philosophy, namely the immorality of subjectivism, emotionalism, hedonism, etc., not this specific activity in enjoying music as such. Their reasons for joining the mosh pit, so to speak, not the proposition that doing the “http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcfIGok1mMI” is intrinsically immoral. (See Rand: Return of the Primitive Chapter 4, “Apollo and Dionysus.”) Although, depending on your age and condition and so forth, it may indeed not be in your self-interest to engage in such activity.

Thanks that helped. I actually have listened to Apollo and Dionysus which is what started me thinking about it. But I will think about your last point.

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I wouldn't say it's a good thing to do. People have died in mosh pits by being trampled. Injury is common.

Aesthetically I'd describe moshing as anti-dancing. Sorry for being harsh about something you obviously enjoy. I was in a mosh pit once as a teenager and enjoyed it mainly because of being intoxicated at the same time, but I can't really see the appeal to a sober person!

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I wouldn't say it's a good thing to do. People have died in mosh pits by being trampled. Injury is common.

Aesthetically I'd describe moshing as anti-dancing. Sorry for being harsh about something you obviously enjoy. I was in a mosh pit once as a teenager and enjoyed it mainly because of being intoxicated at the same time, but I can't really see the appeal to a sober person!

I think you're right about it being anti-dancing. It doesn't really appeal to me like it used to. I just don't feel the need to get anger out, since I have none.

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If you're going to mosh just don't get in over your head. If you size up the crowd first for fist fighters it's as safe as any sport for an athletic person.

I assume intoxication would add some danger, and trying to breate in that environment as a smoker would suck, but I've always been sober.

Aesthetically, it can embody the kind of determination/conviction which is painfully rare to encounter in another mind in day-to-day life. No quarter is requested or given.

While anger is a theme, it is directed outward and not toward other participants. I find that productive energy can be released as well, facing and overcoming a type of

challenge that books and equations don't quite offer, as much as I enjoy books and equations.

If you're at the concert of a particularly nihilistic death metal band the motive for the pit tends to be malicious, some kind of simultaneous punishment of self and others.

I would avoid those concerts for the sake of musical taste anyway. However, if the band is a little more philosophically sound (not necessarily perfect, I take what I can get),

the motives of the crowd in the pit reflect that too. The heaviest pit I've participated in was to Lamb of God's Black Label, and even though everyone was exhausted and still

hitting like pro football players there was no hint of ill will.

I've never picked up a sense of conformity or collective attitude in a pit, quite the opposite. Up in the front couple rows where everyone's packed in skin tight is where that can happen, imo.

I can appreciate the art of dance displayed by someone else, but I cannot imagine dancing much myself even for recreation. Moshing appeals more to my sense of life, though I have

never lost my temper and can't imagine a scenario in which I would start a fight or willingly do anything contrary to the achievement of my own happiness and self-esteem.

Like all aesthetics, it comes down to the values you are seeking from the activity and whether you honestly encounter them in the process.

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If you're going to mosh just don't get in over your head. If you size up the crowd first for fist fighters it's as safe as any sport for an athletic person.

I assume intoxication would add some danger, and trying to breate in that environment as a smoker would suck, but I've always been sober.

Aesthetically, it can embody the kind of determination/conviction which is painfully rare to encounter in another mind in day-to-day life. No quarter is requested or given.

While anger is a theme, it is directed outward and not toward other participants. I find that productive energy can be released as well, facing and overcoming a type of

challenge that books and equations don't quite offer, as much as I enjoy books and equations.

If you're at the concert of a particularly nihilistic death metal band the motive for the pit tends to be malicious, some kind of simultaneous punishment of self and others.

I would avoid those concerts for the sake of musical taste anyway. However, if the band is a little more philosophically sound (not necessarily perfect, I take what I can get),

the motives of the crowd in the pit reflect that too. The heaviest pit I've participated in was to Lamb of God's Black Label, and even though everyone was exhausted and still

hitting like pro football players there was no hint of ill will.

I've never picked up a sense of conformity or collective attitude in a pit, quite the opposite. Up in the front couple rows where everyone's packed in skin tight is where that can happen, imo.

I can appreciate the art of dance displayed by someone else, but I cannot imagine dancing much myself even for recreation. Moshing appeals more to my sense of life, though I have

never lost my temper and can't imagine a scenario in which I would start a fight or willingly do anything contrary to the achievement of my own happiness and self-esteem.

Like all aesthetics, it comes down to the values you are seeking from the activity and whether you honestly encounter them in the process.

Why are you writing like that? Like you were reciting poetry or something.

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I goto a lot of local punk/metal/alternative music shows. I will pit a few times at most shows I attend. However, I've lately found violent pits rather unappealing. It's just kind of fun to let loose completely, run around in circles with fellow punks and have a good time. You bump into each other, but that's really just a result of the craziness.

You sound like you like a lot of Ska. Just skank the night away, my friend.

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I goto a lot of local punk/metal/alternative music shows. I will pit a few times at most shows I attend. However, I've lately found violent pits rather unappealing. It's just kind of fun to let loose completely, run around in circles with fellow punks and have a good time. You bump into each other, but that's really just a result of the craziness.

You realise that "moshing" is about as mindless an activity that could be invented? I'm not sure how it could be a moral thing to do (from an Objectivist perspective) unless one was intoxicated and had their judgement impaired.

Again, sorry to be harsh about this, but if you want to run around in circles play baseball! This will involve developing skills and is most certainly not mindless fun.

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You realise that "moshing" is about as mindless an activity that could be invented? I'm not sure how it could be a moral thing to do (from an Objectivist perspective) unless one was intoxicated and had their judgement impaired.

Simply arguing that something is "mindless" is not enough to show that it is immoral. Rationality is a tool to help you live your life, not an end in itself. You don't have to be constantly thinking in order to live your life deliberately. I can't think of a more mindless or more necessary activity than sleeping.

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How many concerts have you been to that have had a mosh pit? How many circle pits? Skank pits? Do you also think dancing is "mindless"?

I've not been to any rock concerts, just a couple of rock clubs where people were "moshing". I don't think dancing is mindless, quite the opposite, especially dance forms like this:

Two_dancers.jpg

As I said earlier, I think "moshing" is anti-dance. It is completely mindless:

moshing.jpg

I typed in "moshing" into Google images to get that pic and it was the second one; I haven't cherry picked a bad picture, there were far worse.

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It is not morally wrong of you to "mosh" if you expect to gain something of value from the activity. Obviously, if you're simply engaging for the sake of engaging, or you feel compelled, then it would be morally wrong. However, I don't think it's particularly prudent of you to jump into a barely-conscious crowd with the intent of aggregation.

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