Coping With A Confused Objectivist

[EasyDoesIt]

Hello All,

I am new to this Forum but have a spent alot of time here recently perusing this particular section. My boyfriend and I value much in objectivism but lately I find myself confused by what he has found in it and wonder how best to deal with this situation. I feel like I should also say that I am somewhat new to objectivism, my boyfriend has believed strongly for quite a bit longer.

We have been dating for a little over six years and were high school sweethearts. The majority of our relationship was long distance because we were persuing different educational experiences and felt comfortable enough with our relationship to be apart. He has much of what I value in a person and I always felt like we were in a good place. He has had a lot of drama in his life and I have frequently taking a supporting role to help him through tough times, not without inconvience to myself but because I value our relationship it never seemed particularly self-sacrificing. He has recently begun grad school and I will be completeing my undergraduate career in May. However, since he has begun graduate school he has become distant and has now started to ask for space and time and seems to be having something akin to a mid-life crisis (ironic since he's only 20-something). I look at him and I think perhaps he is being a little self-destructive interms of our relationship. I feel like he's not really looking at his values and at me, but rather at himself and this feeling that something isn't right. I think this may be in part because being young as he is, his values are not fully defined. I argue that it's not that something isn't right, but rather that he feels like something shouldn't be right. The drama that his life was filled with is now gone, and finally happy and without complication he turns to our relationship to argue that it isn't perfect and should be denied in order to obtain the ideal. Is this truly rational? To look at something that is good and brings value to your life and deny it because it isn't perfect? Even though it causes you pain to deny it? I am going to say something that will I am sure make everyone ::gasp:: and deem me insane and without a clue, I have not actually read Atlas Shrugged yet. I have read commentary on it, but never the actual novel. Which I know is appalling. I mean to start ASAP. The reason I mention this is because he draws some parallels about our relationship from that book and I wonder if anyone has some insight into that, he argues that he wants someone who will both accept him and challenge him. I'm not entirely sure what that is supposed to mean, especially since he is not usually the kind of person who accepts challenges well. I also think this may have something to do with the evils of codependence. I think perhaps he feels that we ahve become codependent on one another for feelings of safety and security and the best thing to do would be to end it.

I am sorry to rant, but I find myself confused by his conclusions. I feel like his decision to try and break things off is misguided and not for the reasons he has let himself to believe. Although, that could just be because Ive placed so much value on our relationship that I am reluctant to let it go without a fight. Any advice would be welcome. Ideally any advice on how to get him to come around, since I've gotten plenty already on how there's nothing to do and time fixes everything. Thanks.

[B. Royce]

EasyDoesIt, In order for you to independently discover what your boygriend means when he draws parallels between your relationship and any relationships in Atlas Shrugged, you should start reading, not as soon as possible, but now. Or, you could read The Fountainhead first, since it deals throughout with the issue of dependence versus independence.

[DavidOdden]

The drama that his life was filled with is now gone, and finally happy and without complication he turns to our relationship to argue that it isn't perfect and should be denied in order to obtain the ideal. Is this truly rational?

You may not like to hear this, but it might be. If he just has a general feeling of malaise, then it's not rational to identify his relationship with you as the cause. If there is some specific thing relating to you at the root of the matter, then it would be rational. I'm not going to suggest that you leap to the appendix of Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology to read about introspection, but Rand makes the important point that people rarely know how to introspect and determing why something bugs them.

To look at something that is good and brings value to your life and deny it because it isn't perfect?

I don't know what "perfect" would mean here. The basic question is, what are the choices -- what do you gain and what does it cost? Lemme concretize this just so that things don't get homelessly abstract. I knew all along that I didn't like people who want to controlling my life, but as a youth I didn't understand how much I didn't like that. So the choice is, these values or that disvalue? (Answer--these values). The choice becomes rational when you can concretize the issue to something closer to "perceptually self-evident", meaning giving a name to the problem.

Although, that could just be because Ive placed so much value on our relationship that I am reluctant to let it go without a fight.

Which too is the essence of the concept value. I really very totally (ugh, what a pile of adverbs) suggest concentrating on concrete causes. Name the problem (maybe not here, but between the two of you).

BTW I also suggest scrutinizing this concept of co-dependence. I depend on oxygen to survive: that's simple a recognition of fact, not a sign of evil of weakness. I depend on my wife for certain things, and vice versa. A rational value is something that advances your life, and there is nothing wrong with depending on things that advance your life.

[Eternal]

Six years is sure a long time as a gf/bf, and sadly the pain of any break-up, is usually proportional to the duration of the relationship, so I truly sympathise with you. I know I don't have much to go by, and I'm sure you'll disagree with me, but in situations like these, there's usually little point in trying to mend things. One thing about your post, that's different from others I usually read, is that it's usually the guy spilling his heart out, because of being pushed away by a girl. They say that women usually go through the pain before the break-up, while the guys are left to suffer afterwards.

Anyway, you can either cut your losses now and go through some serious pain, or stall hoping for a positive resolution and most likely experience even greater pain later.

When it comes to heart matters, applying logic is usually easier said than done, so I'm very sceptical as to the possibility of you 'making him see' the rationality of your position, and the irrationality of his.

If you really insist on it - put up enough fight, not to regret giving up too early, but at the same time remember that there are over 3 billion potential partners out there, and he's but one of them.

The good news is, you're still young, and have plenty of time to find somebody who'll want you, the way you seem to be wanting him. I wish you good luck either way, it does get better eventually.

[Hal]

To be honest, your boyfriend suggesting that you read 1000 page books in order to understand your relationship sounds a bit... odd. Obviously a lot of people have been strongly influenced by AR's novels, myself included, but I think theres a line between appreciation and obsession. Personally I think you'd be best asking him to explain the problems/issues in his own words, rather than trying to communicate through a mouthpiece.

edit: Thats not to say that you shouldnt read Atlas Shrugged (you should, its great), just that I dont think you should do so primarilly to help with your relationship.

Edited March 23, 2006 by Hal

[Saraswathi]

Dear Easy does it,

I think that people who,in the pursuit of the best will want to deny whatever they have got are not always really striving for happiness....this is by no means to say that one shouldn't have high standards,but often it could be a camouflage to hide their unwillingness to be happy in life and that could be due to the fact that allowing ourselves to be happy may force us to also acknowledge the not so happy things..so it might be convenient to say that nothing is good enough...this may be only one possibility....

Another thing is I would recommend a book I am reading ...called "Women who love too much" ..

It talks about how people tend to keep hoping their partner to change when the reality is that they are quite unlikely to and how to deal with the tendencies of finding the "not-so-good" guys

A relationship needs two people to want to be in it and it is better to let him do what he likes..

you'd be better off finding someone who will also want to be with you and would therefore put in HIS share of work to sustain it......it looked from your post like you might be carrying it all on your own..do check if he is really valuing you and rewarding you for all that..

And about reading Atlas Shruged..if he would accept you if you would only read a book today,he would keep placing other conditions tomorrow..there are plenty of voluminous books that he may feel essential....

This is not to be taken as saying that one shouldn't expect anything from a partner...but the expectations should also be rational...It shouldn't be a neccessary condition for acceptance...It may be more reasonable say,if he loves you and may suggest that you read it or think that it would help you,but would be willing to give you the freedom to do so or not....

All the best..

Edited March 23, 2006 by Saraswathi

[JMeganSnow]

I am sorry to rant, but I find myself confused by his conclusions. I feel like his decision to try and break things off is misguided and not for the reasons he has let himself to believe. Although, that could just be because Ive placed so much value on our relationship that I am reluctant to let it go without a fight.

Well, which is it?

You can't know what's going on in someone else's head, but you can learn to understand what's going on in your own. The best thing to do is to sort out your own emotions by yourself and not badger him about his. Once you actually know why you feel as you do, you'll be able to decide whether those feelings are rational or not and whether you should act on them.

As far as your friend goes, he sounds seriously unhappy. He may not have fastened on the right reason as to why he's unhappy--he may have only a vague suspicion at this point--but the thing with emotions is that you can't ignore them when they are the basis for a relationship. In that context doesn't matter why you no longer love someone if you just don't love them any more.

You can't change your emotions just by deciding to feel something else. By analyzing your emotions and the evaluations that lead to them, you may be able to eventually form new emotional responses so that you won't repeat your mistakes, but that can take years.

I have actually had someone tell me that it was irrational for me not to be attracted to them, and boy, that didn't exactly give me a good impression of them. About all you can do would be to fundamentally change your behavior/personality in some way, and then what would happen to your independance?