Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Adolescent Relationships

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

To start off, I'm 17 and just finishing my last year of high school before college. I'm not much of a social person; I have only one real friend and several many acquaintences. I never took an active interest in having a lot of friends, mostly because there aren't many of my peers at an intellectual level high enough for me to converse with. :S As such, I've never had a girlfriend and have only been on 2 dates before. My experience with girls has always been long periods of nothing where I have crushes but don't act on them, follwed by a break-down where I get so lonely I ask out someone I'm physically attracted to. Then I get ashamed of myself and never follow it up.

There is this one girl who was always better than average. I'm able to talk to her without holding myself back. She's very pleseant and has no real flaws (except one, I'll get to that), yet I've never been very attracted to her. Eventually, around Christmas this year I told myself I had no reason not to like her, and it must be the result of some crippling emotional problems from my childhood. ;) I also knew she liked me in the past. So I asked her out, pulled out the stops, fancy words, flowers, etc. She agreed and we set a date.

What ended up happening was about 2 weeks and 4 postponements later we still hadn't gone out. We also didn't spend any time together seeing as we both had this understanding that it would mean more if we weren't open about it.

We were talking one night and I happened to bring up the one thing I tried to ignore about her: despite being a great person, practically every weekend she goes out with her stupid friends and gets plastered. I've witnessed it before and it's one of the saddest things I've ever seen. Now I don't have a problem with drinking itself, but what scared me was her reason for drinking: I couldn't see one. And when I asked what the reason was she refused to tell me. Then - and I credit this to her being special at least - she knew that we had to call it all off.

Now my dilemma: It's been 3-4 months since then and I'm having second thoughts. Was something like that so important as to not see her? At the time I weighed my values and decided it would be too painful being with her and knowing she's killing herself for some hidden reason. Now I'm wondering if the joy of being with her would've out-weighed it. There's almost no chance she'd try it again, she hasn't changed; if anything, she's gotten worse. But I can't rest now that I don't know if it was a mistake or not.

Secondly, though I know a relationship at my age cannot really go anywhere, I'm scared that when I do find a girl I love later in my life I'd be too inexperienced to get her. As it is, I only just had my first kiss in October; it was also my last. :S

I'd really appreciate it if somebody helped me with this. I can't think of anybody more suited to give me advice than fellow Objectivists. B)

[Moderator's note: This led to some discussion on alcohol, which can be found here.]

Edited by softwareNerd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that you are right in saying that there would be very little chance of this relationship succeeding. I don't think it is a good idea to start a relationship based on anything other than who they are at that time. Even though she might eventually change the way she is acting, I think it would be much better to wait until she has resolved the issue and is willing to discuss it with you, rather than entering the relationship on the hope that she will. This sort of behaviour is probably either caused by her wanting to fit in with her friends, or she is evading something.

If everything else about her is wonderful, and this is her only flaw, then you could try to explain the situation to her and try to get her to open up about it. It will probably take a lot of effort on your part, if it even works. However, if you do succeed at that then there might be a proper basis for a relationship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dude, you messed it up by being too needy and clingy right off the bat with the flowers and all that.

That's why she flaked on you. Next time buy her NOTHING. Don't offer to pay for anything on the date. In fact don't even make a "date". Just say hey at time t on day d "I'm" going to place X you should come with me. Take the lead in your relationships with females and NEVER relinquish it. The second you do and start act like a wussy-boy again is the second she's will start to lose her attraction to you again, and begin to flake on the dates and start telling you she just wants to be "friends". Flip it on

her right from the beginning and repeatedly bring up how you too will make great "friends" and that you just want to be her "friend". Then, when you are with her do or say some things that go beyond "friend" behaviour. Chances are this will totally mess with her thinking and attract her to you like a magnet.

ALWAYS approach every female in a confident, cocky, and funny way in which you know you are the MAN and she want's you. Because even if she really doesn't at first if your really are a confident and funny guy and not a wuss when you kick it with her chances are extremely high that she WILL be attracted to you by the time your gone. Which is what you want.

When your talking to her, hold eye contact in the beginning until SHE looks away, if you don't want to look like a phycho here-- do it with a slightly sarcastic smirk on you face, after a sec squint a little and raise an eyebrow.

Find something about her and IMMEDIATLY start busting her balls about it. And don't stop even if she starts to act "mad". Hint, getting her "mad" at you right off the bat isn't such a bad thing-- right Miss Francon.

If you don't have the confidence in yourself to just walk up and bust on hot chicks... get it. Be selfish and concentrate on yourself until you know you ARE the MAN. In the beginning just play the part until it really starts to click. You might not get as much success right off the bat because females can spot forced and fake confidence at a hundred yards-- but remember we become what we consistently pratice. One day you will be forcing it, and then soon you will realize that you are the MAN, that women want you for that fact alone (more exactly they want you because you are confident enough to show publicly that you are a man)... and that being a proud ,confident, cocky, and funny MAN is what you really are.

You'll realize that we never had to take any of this seriously. You'll be the confident MAN when dealing with females that you are supposed to be, and not the metrosexual wussy-boy that brings flowers and kisses ass that the PC crowd has been shoving down are throats since birth.

Essentially if you want success with females you need to do the opposite of what you've been taught most of your life. If you bring flowers and candy and try to act like a "nice" guy and she flakes on you what have you gained? Brownie points with NOW?

You ever notice how "jerks" seem to get all the women and females are constantly complaining about what an a-hole there man is and yet there is just something about him that they can't leave?

The "jerks" use this stuff because they really DON'T care about her. They just care about hittin' it. Yet she's attracted to HIM like white on rice. Why?

He's his own man, who goes after what he wants in his own way with NO apologies.... HMMMM. To beautiful women who are used to being hit on a hundred and fifty times a day by guys trying to be "NICE" to them this is different. Different is good. And DIFFERENT IS ATTRACTIVE.

BUT, why are the guys "jerks"? Simple answer, they are usually philosophical nihilists and/or heathenists who are the kinds of people who give real selfishness a bad name. SO.... steal his game, but don't be THAT GUY.

Bust a hotties balls, if she's a little vertically challenged, walk right up and say, "What's up, shortie?" or "I like my women short... that way they don't have to get on their knees when....... sarcastic smile." Or whatever, but don't be mean. Bust there balls, then hold all the doors for them and pull out there chair. This kind of treatment sends a females attraction level for you through the roof. Which is what you want.

Anyways, I just thought I would help you out a little cuz you seem a bit clueless right now. But it's all good... if you found O'ism it won't take you long to figure out why this stuff WORKS with females and why it HAS to work in most cases. Alright big guy, have fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you tried just kissing her, showing your hunger? A kiss could be "magical". A kiss can be more intoxicating than the alcohol that she indulges in every weekend. Most people want the other to make the first move, which is often the cause of much unneeded frustration. Get her addicted to your manliness. Often times people drink because they are lonely. And they often drink in social setting because those people bore them. Next time you see her give her a look like you've never given her before, and when you notice the change in her face, just do it ....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Secondly, though I know a relationship at my age cannot really go anywhere, I'm scared that when I do find a girl I love later in my life I'd be too inexperienced to get her. As it is, I only just had my first kiss in October; it was also my last.

How's that again?

There's no reason why young relationships can't go anywhere. They sometimes don't because people your age are still figuring out who they are and settling into their adult persona (if that's a good word for it), so three years down the road you'll have nothing in common. A period of mental shakedown is always bad for starting long-term relationships, because the things that are of primary immediate importance (being lonely, for instance) are not of primary long-term importance, but they weigh very heavily on your emotions all the same.

You don't need experience or cockiness to land a woman unless your idea of manliness is equivalent to being a pimp or a playa. In any relationship, you need to be sure who you are and what you want. Just like getting your dream job (where you get someone to pay you for what you'd do anyway), the trick is to find someone that loves who you are and what you want, in other words, loves what you do anyway.

Self-confidence flows naturally and automatically from deciding what you want and how you're going to get it; you can't force it, you can only lay loud, obnoxious aggression over your insecurities.

I'm 26 and I've had one, count it, one "real" relationship at this point. So relax and find something better to do with your time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Secondly, though I know a relationship at my age cannot really go anywhere, I'm scared that when I do find a girl I love later in my life I'd be too inexperienced to get her. As it is, I only just had my first kiss in October; it was also my last. :S

First, I know from personal experience that that is a non-issue.

Second, what kind of woman would insist on a man with "experience" for its own sake? I would say almost certainly a loose woman. If your ideal woman is promiscuous, then you'll have a problem. If you'd prefer your partner had not constantly slept around with just about everyone, then you should not either.

Third, I agree with JMeganSnow. That's all good advice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since nobody is going to acknowledge EC's reply, I guess I will.... read, re-read and re-read EC's post! One of the main determinants of a man's success in life is his relationship with women. Most men get pushed around their whole lives by women, and it even ruins some (I've seen this happen to very smart, capable men many times). This isn't to talk badly about women, of course, most of the time they don't even know they're doing it.

And do yourself a favor, don't share any feelings until she does, and even then hold back. Use this idea as training wheels until you get to the point in your life where you can't have any lame feelings for a girl because you're too concerned about your own passions in life. You'll know when you get there and trust me, it'll feel damn good.

Oh, and read The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida.

I need to add this: never, ever take dating tips from females. I'm sure JMeganSnow means well, but if you don't want to live in a chick-flick fanatasy your whole life and end up with the girl that nobody else wanted, take EC's advice instead.

Edited by Febod
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I need to add this: never, ever take dating tips from females. I'm sure JMeganSnow means well, but if you don't want to live in a chick-flick fanatasy your whole life and end up with the girl that nobody else wanted, take EC's advice instead.

Heh. No. I concur with JMeganSnow and Inspector. About the only thing I agree with in EC's post is that you probably wierded her out right away by doing the flower thing. Women like a little bit more mystery than that. However, that doesn't mean you have to flip a 180 and turn into a total jack-ass to get a girl. If you do that now with this girl, she'll certainly know your behavior is contrived.

Just be yourself right now, whatever that is. That doesn't mean that whatever you do will send her running toward you. I'm just saying that if you being yourself is not what she wants, you don't want to be with her anyway. No need to play silly mind games. If you're not a bad boy and you don't want to be one, don't play bad boy games. Of course, the reverse is true as well.

"You don't need experience or cockiness to land a woman unless your idea of manliness is equivalent to being a pimp or a playa. In any relationship, you need to be sure who you are and what you want. Just like getting your dream job (where you get someone to pay you for what you'd do anyway), the trick is to find someone that loves who you are and what you want, in other words, loves what you do anyway.

Self-confidence flows naturally and automatically from deciding what you want and how you're going to get it; you can't force it, you can only lay loud, obnoxious aggression over your insecurities."

Once again, JMeganSnow hits the nail on the head.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just be yourself right now, whatever that is.

Thanks for proving my point again, LT. If Mightier keeps acting like himself, the he probably will never step out of his comfort zone which leads to overcoming insecurities and building confidence and self-esteem, esp with the ladies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, first of all she loved the flowers.

Second, I wasn't implying that the comsumption of alcohol itself was bad (though clearly she is evading something/i]). It was that it's really painful to watch someone you care about kill themselves like that. She understood this, and calling it off was completely mutual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, first of all she loved the flowers.... It was that it's really painful to watch someone you care about kill themselves like that.

Sounds to me like reading over your original post and replies again that you actually have figured out what you want. You sound like a well-adjusted young person with a lot of common sense and I don't think you need anyone else's advice but your own. :worry:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dude, she didn't like the flowers. That's why she flaked on you for two weeks. Sure she may have said that she liked the flowers, but you need to learn that when dealing with women, it's best to respond to actions more than words. She's probably just trying to spare your feelings.

And why would you either want or care about a girl who drinks as much as you say she does, esp when you don't drink? Here's what i think happened: You idealized a relationship with this girl before anything even started because you were lonely/shy, and would pretty much take any girl that talked to you. In actuality, this girl really isn't that special and you need to find someone else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We had scheduling conflicts with both our jobs.

Scheduling conflicts. I love it!

In fact I love all of this... :D

OMG... don't listen to the girls here man don't do it. Trust me, they say one thing and *really* want you to do another.

Quick point though-- if anyone thinks that I meant act like a jackass or pimp they are mistaken. I mean act like a man. And believe me hot women LOVE a man that is not afraid to bust their balls a little, some peoples opinions to the contrary here or not, its true.

She may or may not have liked the flowers, she probably did, BUT it doesn't change the fact that it made you look like a wuss and that you're date never actually transpired afterward supposed work "scheduling conflicts" or not.

One more time, to make sure EVERYONE understands don't be a jerk... be a gentlemen--pull out her chair, hold EVERY door open, walk on the side closest to the curb in case a car jumps it :D, but never hand her your over your manhood especially in the beginning. And being a man means being CONFIDENT in your self. And if you can let that confidence show as humor trust WOMEN LOVE IT. So do it. Don't turn yourself into a clown... most humor I use works best with a straight-face.

Be yourself--- but be yourself to the extreme without being a goof-ball or an a-hole.

You can do what girls SAY they like or you can do what WORKS because of highly complex reasons that I'm not going to explain here. The choice is yours, but ask yourself this "Did what I tried to do and was taught to do by 'polite' society get me the ends that I was persuing? Why or why not?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We had scheduling conflicts with both our jobs.

In my experience, this is usually an indication that she isn't crazy for you. Gals will find time. My last romantic interest would work overtime until 1:15AM when I had my first break (I worked graveyard shift) just to see me for 15 minutes. I know that I would personally "make" time for someone I really wanted to see too.

Someone also mentioned here to not take advice from other women about how to attract women. This really depends on how often the woman introspects and understands why she feels attraction. Most ladies tell me they want a "sweet guy" who will take her out, etc. What I've found is that the same woman who tells me this responds immensely to something different: Being a dynamic, funny, exciting, interesting, captivating, and memorable guy--with a hint of mystery and a small indication that you are both a sexual being and are interested in her. When a gal says she wants flowers, it typically means she wants a guy who will give her flowers, but wants all of those other qualities I listed first!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

EC is right. A good bit ago I walked up to an eighteen year old girl (I did not know she was 18 at the time) and introduced myself, asked her name, and then proceeded to make fun by doing a bad prep impression because I saw her walking out of an Abercrombie and Fitch store. (I'm hoping she wasn't attracted to the impression itself) I got her phone number but she recluded once she asked how old I was and I answered honestly that I was 15.

Girls want the guy to be in control. That's why being cocky works. That's why giving a girl flowers doesn't, it puts you in a submissive position. Not asking a girl out officially also works because they're off balance.

Most important thing to remember is nice guys finish last in dating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I pretty much agree with EC on this. Something else to consider is the dynamic of the relationship that is created when a guy pursues a woman in the fashion that most women will claim they want. The "bring them flowers/buy them dinner/take care of their emotional needs/etc" package is just a bad thing to buy. What these activities all have in common is that YOU are making an investment in the relationship in terms of time, money, effort and emotion, while they just have to show up, when its convenient for them. After a few months of this there is little mutual respect and they have nowhere near the vested interest that you have in the relationship. It creates an imbalance. People should never put more into a relationship then the other is wlling to.

And I agree in a sense that there is no reason to play silly games. I just don't think the type of behaviour EC explains is a silly game. You truly should have the self-esteem to honestly believe that you do not need to purchase a womans affections by making any effort to convince her that you are worth having. Let her see what kind of person you are and if she is worthing having, then she'll will be able to recognize your value and will act accordingly.

Best regards

Gordon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for proving my point again, LT. If Mightier keeps acting like himself, the he probably will never step out of his comfort zone which leads to overcoming insecurities and building confidence and self-esteem, esp with the ladies.

Are you aware of what "acting like yourself" entails? It's the hardest thing in the world to accomplish and it requires a tremendous amount of courage and "stepping outside your comfort zone". It means not kowtowing to the requirements of those you don't respect, relying on your own mind and judgment when others object, and having absolute, unbending integrity. And, it is VERY sexy, especially to women, who will see you as a pillar of strength among all the posturing jerks that have memorized lessons in "cockiness" from some manual and tried them on every female with a pulse in order to gain "experience". Pft.

Were you under the impression that your self is some kind of rancid pit that doesn't bear examination, and that you have to escape from it in order to impress? Pft again.

Your self is a shining possibility that you have to learn how to recognize, love, and express; it can seem as fragile as a soap bubble on the wind, but once you've learned its nature, it is strength and resilience incarnate. When I recommended to MightierPen that he "be himself, whatever that is", I meant, not that he should "let it all hang out" and abandon the greatest possibility available to him in favor of whatever pig sty suits him at the moment, I meant that he should abandon the pig sty in favor of whatever he finds is the best possibility in himself. It's something that I, personally, struggle with every day, so I know what it can cost you in time and effort: THAT is the "investment" women want out of you; the flowers, dinner, etc. are just concrete manifestations of it.

We say it over and over, too. We don't necessarily want flowers, we want the man who would bring us flowers, even if he never actually produces any literal flowers. It's not our fault if you focus on the least important word in that sentence as though it were some kind of mystical voodoo artifact.

Why do you think women like military men? It's not something in the uniform, it's the fact that military men have lost the habit of, in the words of Rudyard Kipling "doin' things rather-more-or-less". (Good poem, btw.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...I walked up to an eighteen year old girl ...and introduced myself, asked her name, and then proceeded to make fun by doing a bad prep impression because I saw her walking out of an Abercrombie and Fitch store. ...
Funny story. So, your theory is that if you had then pulled out a flower and recited some poetry she'd have thought you were too timid to be interesting?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you tried just kissing her, showing your hunger? A kiss could be "magical". A kiss can be more intoxicating than the alcohol that she indulges in every weekend. Most people want the other to make the first move, which is often the cause of much unneeded frustration. Get her addicted to your manliness. Often times people drink because they are lonely. And they often drink in social setting because those people bore them. Next time you see her give her a look like you've never given her before, and when you notice the change in her face, just do it ....

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly, but this seems like a very bad idea to me. Trying to change someone "magically" (or at all for that matter) by entering a relationship with her is doomed to fail. It's not good for me to psychologize about someone I've never met, but someone with a drinking problem has issues far deeper than some kind of superficial loneliness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trying to change someone "magically" (or at all for that matter) by entering a relationship with her is doomed to fail.
I'd like to extend this. I shall consider effort you spent and the value you get back. Consider two cases:

1. You meet someone who is almost right for you. You spend your effort and time to "fix" that. Let's assume you have succeeded.

2. You meet someone who is right for you. You don't spend any effort to "fix" them.

If you are to compare them you will get at the same point but in case1 you spent effort (amount depends on the "fault" you were fixing). This alone should make you start thinking about if you want to be with someone you had to fix in order to make them right (or good enough) for you.

Consider further that case2 will go on improving on its own without your effort, while case1 has a good chance of required more effort to keep afloat.

Consider this: would you rather have case1 or case2?

Whatever you answer is, consider the following: do you think you have exhausted your search? Do you think it will be easier to find someone better or to "fix" whom you have now?

Consider also that 'fixing" people is a hard business, which will rebound sooner or later, the moment you remove the pressure you have placed in order to fix the person.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...