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SpookyKitty

Poor Children's Education

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9 hours ago, SpookyKitty said:

I agree. Some people are simply too poor to be allowed to get an education.

That's horrible.  Who are you to decide to disallow anyone from buying an education? 

You think the state should step in and arbitrarily interfere with what would be a voluntary trade between a student/education consumer and a university/education service provider, disallow the student to fund an education because they are poor?  What if they can raise the funds necessary to pay for the service, and the education service provider is willing, will you stop both of them then?

For shame.

I bet your state intervention would extend to keeping voluntary microloans outlawed...  You would stop individuals, businesses and groups of normal citizens from granting loans or interviewing and testing students who come to them for loans?  I suppose you prefer crony capitalism which is part of the cause which prevents people, groups, and businesses from granting loans, and grants a monopoly to banks, or only certain financial and educational institutions, and state run loan programs in a highly regulated banking system.  Your state would probably just deem any student investment contract as "invalid", letting a few deadbeat students get away with theft while making it impossible for the vast majority of honest people to from such a contract and benefit from one another.  Your state would eventually destroy the purpose of education as an investment which benefits the student over the long term and makes financial sense for the student to pursue, putting in its place a social "stamp of prestige" devoid of any substance or worth.

In your tyrannical state how can this self respecting student approach friends and third party investors with an investment proposal?  Will they be disallowed from showing how well they did in high school, how much more they could earn in a career requiring a college or university degree and showing the investor that he or she is honorable, capable and good for the money promised (interest) in return for the investment?

What next?  Would you force others against their will to fund any comer with no plan, mediocre grades, and no guarantee they'd even get paid back let alone benefit from lending the money? Would you simply take money from all the people, not just from those who wish to participate out of generosity, or even believe in the program, but from everyone, against their will, to steal their money and give it away to anyone a university would "accept" regardless of merit?

Of course you would. 

It's the same sort of dictatorial tyranny I would expect of someone who would disallow anyone from buying an education just because they were poor.  By all accounts your tyranny would destroy professional, valuable, well-run education services as well as the free society which would be required for them to exist.

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Just now, StrictlyLogical said:

It's the same sort of dictatorial tyranny I would expect of someone who would disallow anyone from buying an education just because they were poor.  By all accounts your tyranny would destroy professional, valuable, well-run education services as well as the free society which would be required for them to exist.

I don't want poor people going to the same school as me though. They make me uncomfortable, and besides, they stink. Don't I have the right to freely choose who I do and do not peacefully associate with? Can't I just voluntarily go to a school that doesn't accept poor people? (I never said state intervention would be necessary to do this. All you have to do is make the cost of education high enough. Or you know, just have a sign at the entrance that says "your stack of cash must be at least this tall to go on this ride.")

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16 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

Can't I just voluntarily go to a school that doesn't accept poor people?

Of course... but it's a questionable decision to go a school that irrationally refuses people who can pay (through some investment funding) who are otherwise poor, or to base your choice re. education on how people smell, or worse to base your choice on your erroneous assumptions regarding how people smell

 

20 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

All you have to do is make the cost of education high enough

As a student you cannot do this.  Are you proposing to start a school yourself? 

Are you planning to overcharge students for education they could easily find elsewhere at a lower price?  Do you intend to provide subpar education?  You might find that being the opposite of an astute business person opens you up to decimation and ruin by astute business persons in your market... i.e. better run schools for a more competitive price.  Also if you plan to run a school on an irrational basis (by refusing entry to "poor" people who have funding) all you will attract are students of equally irrational premises... not the best choice for the long run for the reputation and business prospects of your school.  You and your school will likely go bankrupt.

 

Of course you can try to become a dictator and enforce your tyranny on everyone...

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Just now, StrictlyLogical said:

Of course... but it's a questionable decision to go a school that irrationally refuses people who can pay (through some investment funding) who are otherwise poor, or to base your choice re. education on how people smell, or worse to base your choice on your erroneous assumptions regarding how people smell

That's not irrational at all. Anybody stupid enough to fund their education with a public or private loan should be disbarred immediately in order to maintain standards. After all, being poor is a choice. If they were rational and smart they would stop being poor first and then attend school.

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As a student you cannot do this.  Are you proposing to start a school yourself? 

Are you planning to overcharge students for education they could easily find elsewhere at a lower price?  Do you intend to provide subpar education?  You might find that being the opposite of an astute business person opens you up to decimation and ruin by astute business persons in your market... i.e. better run schools for a more competitive price.  Also if you plan to run a school on an irrational basis (by refusing entry to "poor" people who have funding) all you will attract are students of equally irrational premises... not the best choice for the long run for the reputation and business prospects of your school.  You and your school will likely go bankrupt.

Of course! The whole point of my school is that it is too expensive for the poor (and therefore irrational) to attend. Hence, students have the guarantee of being surrounded by faculty, staff, and classmates who are at least as rational as they are. What rational person would want to go to a bargain bin school full of less rational people?

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Also if you plan to run a school on an irrational basis (by refusing entry to "poor" people who have funding) all you will attract are students of equally irrational premises... not the best choice for the long run for the reputation and business prospects of your school.  You and your school will likely go bankrupt.

If we admitted all poor people who have funding, our education standards would be decimated. If said poor person can't even read and write, they should be allowed to attend my school just because they can afford it? Don't be ridiculous.

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Of course you can try to become a dictator and enforce your tyranny on everyone...

No tyranny here, just voluntary association.

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14 hours ago, SpookyKitty said:

I agree. Some people are simply too poor to be allowed to get an education.

Who holds this position?  Or are you seriously saying you do?

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Just now, SpookyKitty said:

"Uhhh... no", as in I'm wrong, or "uhhh...no", you're not gonna think?

If you explain why some poor people should not be allowed to get an education you will give me something to think about.  

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Just now, SpookyKitty said:

Well if they can't afford it then, they shouldn't be allowed to get it.

You are going in circles.  What if someone decides to educate these poor people?  

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Just now, Craig24 said:

You are going in circles.  What if someone decides to educate these poor people?  

How? The only way to educate poor people is to just tell them to stop being poor. But they refuse to listen.

Edited by SpookyKitty

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Just now, Craig24 said:

Ask the people providing the education.  What am I?  A know it all?  

Changed my post, sorry.

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How? The only way to educate poor people is to just tell them to stop being poor. But they refuse to listen.

 

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3 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

How? The only way to educate poor people is to just tell them to stop being poor. But they refuse to listen.

Why is that the only way to educate them?  I've never heard of this before.  

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Just now, Craig24 said:

Why is that the only way to educate them?  I've never heard of this before.  

Because being poor is a choice. No rational person would choose to be poor. Hence they are irrational. Since they are irrational anything else you teach them would be an exercise in futility.

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1 hour ago, SpookyKitty said:

That's not irrational at all. Anybody stupid enough to fund their education with a public or private loan should be disbarred immediately in order to maintain standards. After all, being poor is a choice. If they were rational and smart they would stop being poor first and then attend school.

What qualifies as poor?

What if a person was poor only because they are just young and grew up in a poor family, but are wholly rational and only seeking to be in high quality schools?

What if I deem the person to be brilliant at a subject, so I accept them for that reason?

Come on SK, you're better at making arguments than you're showing here. Sounds like you're trying to show a reductio ad absurdum of seeking education on the one hand, but also expecting a person to make money to afford school, as no rational person would go to a school they cannot afford. Thus, you'd show an impossibility/struggle for any Objectivist viewpoint.

If ALL you're saying is that loans should not be accepted, this wasn't explained well, and I think it's plausible, i.e. it encourages "self-startedness" and seeking the best. It is no violation of rights to deny someone a product through high costs, nor is it immoral. Loans may work otherwise in business, but education is different. To get in said school, you'd be rich already. It doesn't bother me - there are free learning options from books, to make money, to then get in expensive schools. I don't see why loans necessarily ruin standards, so long as all other standards stand, e.g. GRE scores.

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Just now, SpookyKitty said:

Because being poor is a choice. No rational person would choose to be poor. Hence they are irrational. Since they are irrational anything else you teach them would be an exercise in futility.

Being poor is a choice for who?  Why is choosing to be poor irrational?  How does choosing to be poor prevent a person from being rational enough to be educated?  

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Just now, Eiuol said:

What qualifies as poor?

Someone who can't afford to pay for college, at least in this context.

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What if a person was poor only because they are just young and grew up in a poor family, but are wholly rational and only seeking to be in high quality schools?

They should get a job.

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What if I deem the person to be brilliant at a subject, so I accept them for that reason?

That's impossible. Anybody who is actually talented would already be rich.

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Come on SK, you're better at making arguments than you're showing here. Sounds like you're trying to show a reductio ad absurdum of seeking education on the one hand, but also expecting a person to make money to afford school, as no rational person would go to a school they cannot afford. Thus, you'd show an impossibility/struggle for any Objectivist viewpoint.

I'm just saying what everybody else is thinking.

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If ALL you're saying is that loans should not be accepted, this wasn't explained well, and I think it's plausible, i.e. it encourages "self-startedness" and seeking the best. It is no violation of rights to deny someone a product through high costs, nor is it immoral. Loans may work otherwise in business, but education is different. To get in said school, you'd be rich already. It doesn't bother me - there are free learning options from books, to make money, to then get in expensive schools. I don't see why loans necessarily ruin standards, so long as all other standards stand, e.g. GRE scores.

Like I said before, anyone actually rational enough for a top school wouldn't need a loan to get in. They'd just figure out how to come up with the money on their own.

Edited by SpookyKitty

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Just now, Craig24 said:

Being poor is a choice for who?  Why is choosing to be poor irrational?  How does choosing to be poor prevent a person from being rational enough to be educated?  

It's a choice for everyone. Being poor is irrational because money is good and you are choosing to have less of something good. Sacrificing one's values for less is irrational.

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1 minute ago, SpookyKitty said:

That's impossible. Anybody who is actually talented would already be rich.

...you do know it typically takes time?

Loans, if done right, predict making money afterwards, so only loans you don't expect to be able to afford are irrational.

STAYING poor is a choice, but often for young kids, it's just because they were born there. Being incidentally poor here at 18 is not a choice always, while being poor at 30+ is often a choice or failure to be rational. I mean, I'd rather not hire a single mother of 3 who is 35 and poor for an important job, or be in a PhD program. It's stupid of her to end up this way. They "shouldn't be allowed" in the moral sense, not the legal sense.

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Just a thought on the subject in general, I can't help wondering how much government intervention in education, i.e., public education contributes to exacerbating the number of poor, the decline in quality of primary schools, and spilling over into higher education.

As to —

5 hours ago, SpookyKitty said:

I don't want poor people going to the same school as me though.

— an alternative would be to hire your own personal tutor.

Edited by dream_weaver

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