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Marilyn Manson

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Lagroht
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Long time ago I was listening with real passion his piece "I don't like the drugs - but the drugs like me".

Norm life baby "we're white and oh so hetero and our sex is missionary."

Norm life baby "we're quitters and we're sober our confessions will be televised."

You and I are underdosed and we're ready to fall

Raised to be stupid, taught to be nothing at all

I don't like the drugs but the drugs like me

I don't like the drugs, the drugs, the drugs

Norm life baby "our god is white and unforgiving we're piss tested and we're praying."

Norm life baby "I'm just a sample of a soul made to look just like a human being."

Norm life baby "we're rehabbed and we're ready for our 15 minutes of shame."

Norm life baby "we're talkshown and we're poiting just like christians at a suicide."

You and I are underdosed and we're ready to fall

Raised to be stupid, taught to be nothing at all

I don't like the drugs but the drugs like me

I don't like the drugs, the drugs, the drugs

It's full of methapors. And I recommend video for it. It make sense, kick ass.

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The man is a creative genius, I think. I do value some of his lyrics and music having listened to him for well over a decade now, and when I had my guitar I liked playing some of the his tablature. He's got some nice word play, like portmanteau's and paronomasia, double entendre's and so forth, gives interesting insight into the media, celebrities, and so on. Not to mention all the symbolism he uses, parody/blasphemy, and his various persona's (for want of a better word) or identities and the way he dresses too, what he did to the Goth music genre...on and on. I like the style he's been dressing in over the last several years or so more than at any other time. I do not like his watercolor art much, I'd take a Mark Ryden Blood Painting any day over his. He's got his own drink out too, Mansinthe. Another album is being recorded right now, and will be out, I think, next month? and also a movie in production Phantasmagoria: The Visions of Lewis Carroll, about Lewis Carroll's life, which I wrote about a little while ago on a different forum, which got me curious enough to actually read about Carroll and some of his works:

Phantasmagoria: The Visions of Lewis Carroll is film in production right now, directed by Marilyn Manson, who also plays Carroll in the movie. Lewis's diaries, Manson apparently related to these and wanted to show a different hidden side of Carroll. Here is what we know about the movie:

Victorian England.

A haunted writer in an isolated castle is tormented by sleepless nights and visions of a girl named Alice. He finds himself becoming a symptom of his own invention.

“Now all my nightmares know my name.”

He is Lewis Carroll. Terrified of what waits for him each night.

4.2 million dollar production, that's supposed to have some magician as his special effects guy, and aiming to "redefine the horror genre":

From the Wiki on the movie:

Marilyn Manson has stated that Phantasmagoria will be "something people haven't seen before and will be filmed in a way no one has done yet. “I have a camera that I’ll be the first person to use in cinema, and I‘m very excited about it. It’s very unique."

He has suggested the use of subliminal elements to enhance feeling, but also says he may go further. “I‘m going to do a lot of things that may end up being illegal. Until they are, I will do them. I think it will change people’s opinion about horror films and they will realize they’re not all about slasher”. “I might add that the girls playing Tweedledum and Tweedledee are twins who get to have real, genuine sex with each other. I like to make dreams come true”.

Manson on the subject of the movie:

I want to take the children's story that we all know, and discover the horrifying roots that grow beneath every one of its childish metaphors. The characters may be absurd and wrapped in puzzles, but the author himself is the story that I find painfully close to me. Lewis Carroll is far more complex than the world's narrow perception of him as a quiet deacon, a mathematician and a loner, simply obsessed with photographing young girls. He was possibly one of the most divided souls living in his own hell that the world has overlooked.

I felt like there were a lot of things about his personality that were like mine. His creativity thrived mostly at night. He was a very odd person. In the past year, just putting together the script, I think I've adopted a lot of his personality, whether for better or for worse. I discovered that Charles Dodgson, who called himself Lewis Carroll, was more of a creation than his stories were. He was very much a Jekyll and Hyde story, and the more I looked into it, the more (I realized) this was a ghost story, really. He was haunted by his own demons and had a split personality in a lot of ways. He couldn't find happiness; he couldn't find a family. He didn't sleep. I think that he was seeing things. You start seeing things differently, stuff that normal people don't see - stuff that I have seen now and again. I think I was able to relate to that and to want to put it on the screen.
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  • 4 weeks later...

Fellow MM fans, May 26 will be the release of MM's new album titled The High End of the Low:

The track list and cover art of Marilyn Manson’s new album, The High End of Low, have just been released, Rolling Stone.com reports. The cover art features a red and blue close-up shot of Manson wearing glow sticks like a halo, giving one of his signature devilish stares.

In true Manson fashion, the album promises to stir up controversy. Many songs have extremely morbid titles such as “I Have to Look Up Just to See Hell,” “I Want to Kill You Like They Do in the Movies.” Perhaps the most shocking song title of the album is “Pretty as a Swastika.” The title of the first single, which hit radio on April 13 is “Arma...geddon,” a title which has been edited down from the explicit version for radio.

(article)

Tracks:

1Devour

2Pretty As A Swastika

3Leave A Scar

4 Four Rusted Horses

5Arma-Goddamn-Motherfuckin'-Geddon

6Blank And White

7Running To The Edge Of The World

8I Want To Kill You Like They Do In The Movies

9WOW

10Wight Spider

11Unkillable Monster

12 We're From America

13I Have To Look Up Just To See Hell

14 Into The Fire

15 15

Edited by intellectualammo
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  • 3 weeks later...

I downloaded the album last night, about two hours after it's release. I'm not disappointed, especially with this song w/lyrics that go like this, which are personally pleasing to me:

"I'm just a painting that's still wet

If you touch me

I'll be smeared

You'll be stained

Stained for the rest of your life

Turn around

Walk away

Before you confuse

The way we abuse each other

If you're not afraid of getting hurt

Then I'm not afraid of how much I hurt you"

That's from "Leave a Scar", and there are others that I like, "I Want to Kill You Like They Do In The Movies", "We're from America", et al.

Anyone else going to buy it, or any of the tracks?

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I'm digging it to - for meaning.

I have to catch up on what's been going on in his personal life, something I actually never really looked at much, but it's so obvious that the last two albums were very influenced by women in his life.

I'm looking around trying to find more meaning to the "15" song and "Into the Fire" (and also "I Want To Kill You Like They Do in The Movies"). The lyrics are haunting to me. I think Manson must have suffered something much akin to a narcissistic injury or something, wanted his narcissistic supply(NS) back, when Wood and him split (not sure why but I think they have since reunited), him secluding himself for three months - I swear "15" has to do about that particular time. Also the way they met I want to look more into, which is important in the last album I think. I'm just unsure which woman and which album match up together. I'd say Wood dominates both, and Teese earlier, but also some in the latter two.

I've lost everything — I've lost friends, I've lost love. I've lost money. And this record is really about loss. The last album had a lot of romantic, Shakespearean ideals attached to the music, like "the world doesn't understand us, let's die together." Now? This record is more about: If you say you'll be with me until I die, and then you change your mind, you should run very fast. Because I'll kill you.

I think this album is the absolute most morbid album I have ever listened to in my life - and am fascinated by it.

"Leaving me alone to die

is worse than having the guts to kill me."

"Not letting you in

won't satisfy me

I'll teach you about loss"

- from "15"

This has to be about Wood.

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And the fascination continues. If you watch the video in this article, you will notice that thv symbol being used...is the dollar sign.

So that’s how the stage is set, and then comes the onslaught we’ve all be hoping for. Pretty As A Swastika obviously has a fair share of shocking, oh-so-Marilyn-Manson imagery at the core, introducing a play on symbols where the US dollar sign stands-in for the swastika

From an interview w/Time, MM says:

Track two is called Pretty as a Swastika. It's something I said to a girl because of her complexion — with black hair, red lips and pale skin. I mean, it was a complex and poetic comment that soon led to intercourse, so I felt no reason for it to be seen as confusing, hateful and destructive. The record label [told me], take it off the album. Rather than do so, I decided to produce it on the inside of the sleeve with a different name, so it'll be sold in Wal-Mart or wherever stores sell guns but are afraid to deal with lyrics. So, I put Pretty as a ($) because all of their motivations are based on money.
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And the fascination continues. If you watch the video in this article, you will notice that thv symbol being used...is the dollar sign.

The music itself is not very interesting. It's very simple. I mean, it’s not like he’s Mozart.

I'm not that familiar with Manson's work, but using the dollar sign as a stand in for the Swastika is beneath contempt, when you realize what the actual philosophy of Nazism means (socialism).

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The Beautiful People quite fascinated me at the time because that's what I felt about the world. He rightly criticises religion but gives no positive alternative. His idea is that living ethically is not possible. To him, capitalism is evil but allows him to feel good.

I have one T-shirt with his face in the front and the back saying "There is not time to discriminate, hate every motherfucker that is in your way" (from the Beautiful People lyrics)

When I'm ready, I'd get one with Ayn Rand in the front and the John Galt oath in the back.

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There is an interesting phenomenon I've noticed concern some people when it comes to music. They aren't so much into the music, as they are the lyrics. They say "Hey, listen to this, it's great." I count the number of times I've done this and been less than impressed, but then I started realizing they are listening to the words, not the music.

I think this is the reason lots of people like Steely Dan so much, for instance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyaYXwoXpeM

Is a lyricist really a musician? They are writers who put words to music. For a pure musician of the highest caliber you have to think Beethoven, Mozart, Rachmaninoff.

Now, of course, I love good lyrics, so don't get me wrong. I'm just making an observation about the way people evaluate music.

Then I’ve found people who like My Bloody Valentine purely based on music, and I don’t get that one at all!

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There is an interesting phenomenon I've noticed concern some people when it comes to music. They aren't so much into the music, as they are the lyrics. They say "Hey, listen to this, it's great." I count the number of times I've done this and been less than impressed, but then I started realizing they are listening to the words, not the music.

I think this is the reason lots of people like Steely Dan so much, for instance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyaYXwoXpeM

Is a lyricist really a musician? They are writers who put words to music. For a pure musician of the highest caliber you have to think Beethoven, Mozart, Rachmaninoff.

Eh. I'm not the biggest Steely Dan fan, but I'll take them over Beethoven, Mozart, and Rach musically any day. Don't tell me what to think. :D

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Eh. I'm not the biggest Steely Dan fan, but I'll take them over Beethoven, Mozart, and Rach musically any day. Don't tell me what to think. :D

Come the hell on! First, analysis isn't telling you "what to think", nor would I ever tell anyone what to think, because it is impossible! 2nd, what you say is pure insanity.

Here, Beethoven:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0oUefWW4HY

Steely Dan could haven't written that in their wildest dreams, and they'd admit it!

Here, Mozart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb3bwGb0glQ...&playnext=1

Here, Rachmoninoff:

I like some of Steely Dan, but ... they sound flat by comparison.

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Thales: "Come the hell on! First, analysis isn't telling you "what to think"

No, but this is: "For a pure musician of the highest caliber you have to think Beethoven, Mozart, Rachmaninoff..." But that's why I put the smily, I don't think you caught your own implication.

Thales: "2nd, what you say is pure insanity."

I'd say that I'm insane then, but that's bullshit.

And if all you can do is paste youtube clips, then your analysis is shit. I'd invite you to my site, Orpheus Remembered, to compare notes.

(That said, I do agree with you about the lyrics versus music aspect, an argument I've made on this site and elsewhere.)

I like some of Steely Dan, but ... they sound flat by comparison.

Says you.

Edited by spaceplayer
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Thales: "Come the hell on! First, analysis isn't telling you "what to think"

No, but this is: "For a pure musician of the highest caliber you have to think Beethoven, Mozart, Rachmaninoff..." But that's why I put the smily, I don't think you caught your own implication.

Sure, but what I mean by that is that logical assessment must lead you to that conclusion. This is akin to me saying, "When it comes to mathematicians of the highest caliber you have to think Newton, Euler, Archimedes, et.al."

Thales: "2nd, what you say is pure insanity."

I'd say that I'm insane then, but that's bullshit.

The sheer cleverness of those composers is manifest in their work.

And if all you can do is paste youtube clips, then your analysis is shit. I'd invite you to my site, Orpheus Remembered, to compare notes.

I can do much more, but I thought side-by-side comparisons would do wonders. Seeing --- and hearing -- is believing.

But, to analyze it, a piece of music is held together by its melody. Everything has to integrate around the melody and sound good to the ear. Other elements such as harmony and rhythm work within that structure. A clever piece of music is one that has clever elements, i.e. uniquely thought out arrangements that sound good to the ear. The longer the piece the more the demand for cleverness from the musician. If the music is the same throughout a piece, then it will cease to be interesting, the listener will become bored. The great composers often wrote long pieces that could sustain interest, and they also wrote pieces that demanded a lot of the listener.

A group like Steely Dan they can certainly hold your interest and there is cleverness there (often in the lyrics and music combo), but the songs are short. They can't hold your interest that long. Yet, even given this, for short pieces they couldn't write melody, harmony or rhythm as well as Mozart. His piece the Turkish March shows his brilliance in a relatively short work.

That is a very clever melody and he keeps mixing it up. It's not like a typical rock or country song, where there is little variation through out. And it’s a non-symphonic piece. A symphonic piece would require the mixing of multiple instruments and musical textures, so for that

check this piece out.

Mozart's 41 symphony:

Then read the side bar. I'd always thought there was something brilliant about this piece, and the side bar here helped me to realize what it was.

This really demands a high quality recording and a high quality stereo, though. So, the full effect isn’t there.

(That said, I do agree with you about the lyrics versus music aspect, an argument I've made on this site and elsewhere.)

We have a note of agreement.

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Thales: "They can't hold your interest that long."

Again, please speak for yourself.

"We have a note of agreement."

I'll also grant you that "classical" composers are technically more proficient. If it were a contest of that sort, I'd say no contest. But that's not really the issue, is it?

Mozart? Where's the funk? Where's the groove that makes my booty move? Rach? He's alright, but he's lacking in spaceships.

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Ookay...getting back to the topic at hand...[hints at topic split for Mozart & Rach]

, and there are others that I like..."We're from America", et al.

Anyone else going to buy it, or any of the tracks?

"We're from America" is without a doubt the most puerile garbage I've EVER heard come out of this guy's mouth. You should be ashamed of yourself.

...

That said, as a lifetime member of the Manson fan club (albeit with waning enthusiasm), I'm going to go get a copy of the album right now. It has to have at least two tracks that are good for listening to while working out, and I intend to find them. If his claim that he "has his fire back" is accurate, then I'm hoping for a return of the more-"fun"-less-self-pitying feel that was characteristic of Golden Age (and, to some extent, Portrait.)

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I'm not that familiar with Manson's work, but using the dollar sign as a stand in for the Swastika is beneath contempt, when you realize what the actual philosophy of Nazism means (socialism).

I don't view it as being beneath contempt yet, as I am still trying to understand his use of it. Why use it in the video? for a song that isn't that "Pretty as a Swastika" song? The colors of it are correct too - black, white, red, in the way the swastika that Hitler designed himself, is. Hitlers colors meant something to. This symbols of the $ I imagine MM designing himself, like his electric shock symbol (which is more like Nietzschean lightning if you ask me)(and LaVey actually had his own baphomet with a symbol like that inside it in gold)(and MM also has the baphomet symbols that go around the outside of it, which I think means "Leviathan" going around on his, differently)

I am usure of his political views, or if he thinks capitalism is evil. I know that when I was disassociating myself with my fellow Satanists many years ago, the official stance of the CoS would be that Satanists are "apolitical" because they can exist in any system or society, as I have been told, and gathered due mainly to their pragmatism.

When I see that video that looks to me as some kind of parody of maybe both Nazism and capitalism - "the almighty dollar" comes to mind, American symbolism, not subordinating (that's probably not the right word) yourself under the state, God/prophet, but to profit, money - but such a parody, to me, is not beneath contempt. As Objectivists, this is like the most important symbol to us, the dollar sign, and it is an American one, as Rand said (though it's not clear to me if it actually means this or not, but it is absolutely fitting, the "U" and the "S" symbol) "to make money". This is an American thing, that concept, which can be found in Rand's writings on the American spirit. Nazis Germany, that spirit had it's symbol - we have ours. Is he implying that it dictates/contols something, that it's evil, wrong? I don't see that. His cultural observations, on the media, entertainment, celebrities - are fascinating to me.

Just look at "We're From America" lyrics. The malignant narcissists that shot up the schools, can be succinctly put:

"I want to be a martyr, don’t want to be a victim

Be a killer with a gun, so they call me a hero"

Cho was most explicit with that. Pragmatism is as rampant in this country as narcissistic traits are rampant in many peoples personalities in this country, at least to me. Deadly combination. Malignant narcissists really could care less about whether their attention or fame is due to notoriety, and the media serves as a great vehicle, perpetuator of that - especially when you do something wrong. (not true in all cases of course, but generally this happens, and naturally too) Most of these shooters are well aware of this and luxuriate in knowing this, though they won't be alive to fully get the attention they want, I'm kind of surprised they kill themselves in that respect. Cho referenced those before them, and probably tried to outdo them as well, with larger death tolls, terror, style, like in videos/pics, and getting his words and voice out there, making use of multimedia.

But it's just interesting to me that MM, as a creative genius, is also a keen observer, and his last two albums have much to do with his personal life.

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"We're from America" is without a doubt the most puerile garbage I've EVER heard come out of this guy's mouth. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I'm not in the least. Perhaps you should, for not knowing why I said that I liked that one and others, first. Some of his observations on American culture, as it's manifested out there today, I think at times, is spot on.

Don't disrespect me again.

Edited by intellectualammo
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Everything has to integrate around the melody and sound good to the ear.

What do you mean by “melody”?

song has no melody, and I can assure you it sounds great to my ears. That is because I’m focusing on the technical aspects of the writing and playing. I appreciate the complexity of the structure, and the great amounts of theory and skill needed to come up with that song. As I said before, this is a matter of purpose.

The longer the piece the more the demand for cleverness from the musician. If the music is the same throughout a piece, then it will cease to be interesting, the listener will become bored.

Well, I don’t think this is true. Let me give you an example of this. Here is one of my favorite songs. This is a thirty minute long piece, and it has the same melody and patterns repeated all over it. It certainly doesn’t bore me at all, and I wouldn’t like it to be any shorter.

Mozart? Where's the funk? Where's the groove that makes my booty move? Rach? He's alright, but he's lacking in spaceships.

This is a great example of music appreciation being a matter of purpose.

Edited by Howard Roark
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Ookay...getting back to the topic at hand...[hints at topic split for Mozart & Rach]

Well, doggone it. I was just getting ready to complain that Thales left out Tchaikovsky. (I personally have found Rachmaninov to be uneven--when he's good he's very good; I'd've used the *last* movement of that concerto as his best. And judging from what AR wrote in Fountainhead, I wouldn't be the only one.)

Anyhow, back to something closer to the topic... For as long as I can remember I've had trouble even understanding what the lyrics *are* in most popular music (rock, pop, etc.) At least now I know it's because I've got something in common with Beethoven (and it ain't musical ability), but back when I was a kid I had not started to go deaf--I suspect low quality recordings and/or production values. But even with groups where the lyrics are as clear as a bell to me, they're generally pretty innocuous, and I generally ignore the lyrics and concentrate on the melody and more instrumental aspects. (Incidentally, does rap--lacking even a melody--even meet the definition of music? This is aside from the question of whether it's good or bad whatever-it-is.)

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Thales: "They can't hold your interest that long."

Again, please speak for yourself.

I'm not just saying this. The fact is when the same thing is repeated too much it has a tendency to put one to sleep. It's like the difference between drawing a cartoon and doing a full blown painting. I can listen to happy birthday for a verse or two, but, hey, it starts to get boring very fast.

"We have a note of agreement."

I'll also grant you that "classical" composers are technically more proficient. If it were a contest of that sort, I'd say no contest. But that's not really the issue, is it?

First, it's not so much that they are classical composers, because most music in any genre is mediocre. I'd much rather listen to a good Pink Floyd song than a mediocre classical composer. What I'm looking at are the best in each genre, and for that the very best musicians were the classical composers. They produced the best sounds. The technical proficiency is the means to the sound, but to handle level of complexity and produce brilliant sound over a long piece is unbelievably difficult.

Mozart? Where's the funk? Where's the groove that makes my booty move? Rach? He's alright, but he's lacking in spaceships.

Mozart, had he known rock, or funk, or jazz, he would have been able to do it, and he would likely have been the best at it. The kind of knowledge and brilliance he had would have allowed him to go in directions undreamed of by other musicians. And, remember, he had no recording device or electronic synthesizer to make sounds.

Mozart could write their work, but they couldn’t write Mozart’s work.

"funk" with "groove" okay, that’s great. I mean, I enjoy that too, although it's never going to do more for me than metal or hard rock, if you want to go down that road.

And, btw, even the best rock groups are the more innovative ones, who add more cleverness to their songs. The Rolling Stones were superb musicians within their genre, for instance.

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I don't view it as being beneath contempt yet, as I am still trying to understand his use of it. Why use it in the video? for a song that isn't that "Pretty as a Swastika" song? The colors of it are correct too - black, white, red, in the way the swastika that Hitler designed himself, is. Hitlers colors meant something to. This symbols of the $ I imagine MM designing himself, like his electric shock symbol (which is more like Nietzschean lightning if you ask me)(and LaVey actually had his own baphomet with a symbol like that inside it in gold)(and MM also has the baphomet symbols that go around the outside of it, which I think means "Leviathan" going around on his, differently)

I'm taking it at face value. The impression I get is what I think most people would get who saw that video. He may have some deeper meaning that requires listening to more of his work. I mean, I understand that many of you are getting value out of him because of his capacity to identify short comings in society and reveal them through his work. However, can you put those ideas in your own words in a succinct way? If you were to strip away all of the music and the lyrical playfulness, what ideas do you pull out?

Just look at "We're From America" lyrics. The malignant narcissists that shot up the schools, can be succinctly put:

"I want to be a martyr, don’t want to be a victim

Be a killer with a gun, so they call me a hero"

Cho was most explicit with that. Pragmatism is as rampant in this country as narcissistic traits are rampant in many peoples personalities in this country, at least to me. Deadly combination.

I would have thought a nihilist would be more likely to let his mind sink to the level of corruption that Cho did.

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What do you mean by “melody”?
song has no melody, and I can assure you it sounds great to my ears. That is because I’m focusing on the technical aspects of the writing and playing. I appreciate the complexity of the structure, and the great amounts of theory and skill needed to come up with that song. As I said before, this is a matter of purpose.

There are small melodic sequences, but it doesn't hold together as a piece of music. To be blunt, it's awful. I mean, if you are listening to it for technical reasons, then that is a whole different matter. You are finding value in it not as music, but as a component of music.

Just to be clear, I got this idea from Aaron Copland, a great composer. It always made sense to me.

Well, I don’t think this is true. Let me give you an example of this. Here is one of my favorite songs. This is a thirty minute long piece, and it has the same melody and patterns repeated all over it. It certainly doesn’t bore me at all, and I wouldn’t like it to be any shorter.

For some reason I can't get it to play on any of my players, but it's okay if melodies repeat, so long as there is variation in the way it is played. Repetitive melody would be a standard requirement of any piece anyway. I'm really referring to clever variations as a song is played. These can hold your interest and send you through different emotional states.

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However, can you put those ideas in your own words in a succinct way? If you were to strip away all of the music and the lyrical playfulness, what ideas do you pull out?

That's what I've been trying to do. I should look around for more info from MM, instead of seemingly divining an exact meaning, in the video itself. Subsituting the swastika for the dollar sign to get it into the store, may have made connections, and other meanings to him, that wasn't thought of before, or maybe it was thought of before that. I just don't know enough to really say, only from what I can find him saying about it. The last two albums many of the songs, the morbid love/death ones, so hard to analyze for me. I just don't know enoug about his pesonal life, or what he has to say about particular songs. I have to whatc confusing it with my own interpretations, many still forming.

I would have thought a nihilist would be more likely to let his mind sink to the level of corruption that Cho did.

Yes, I probably should have hit return to separate it from my own observation that followed it.

What I was trying to say is that in pragmatism, cetrain narcissists would do what worked to get the attention - through fame or notoriety, becoming famous, or infamous - whatever works, regardless of referencing principles.

Cho - definately nihilistic which probably developed from a narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), of the malignant or pathological variety.

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