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The March on Washington (9/12 Project)

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Guest Erik Martinsen

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Guest Erik Martinsen

I'm surprised there isn't a thread about yesterday's March on Washington here. In any event, I'm certain you'll appreciate this: Glenn Beck covered the event on Fox News in a 2-hour special, and is likely to have had around 4.000.000 viewers. In the middle of the broadcast he put on Dr. Yaron Brook for over 4 minutes, and very respectfully debated atheism and individual rights with him. He also mentioned the term "Objectivist".

View it here. Dr. Brook appears at 2:38.

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That was excellent!

Previous to my reading of AS, I believed that Jefferson and others that he worked with in crafting what they did were Christian or at least built everything under a "JudeoChristian" ideology. However, I recognize in no place where Jesus is mentioned in any of those founding father document to make any argument for some kind of a specific Christian ideology. If itwas developed under that premise, Jesus would certainly need to be mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution.

I watch Beck and I can see some of what I thought before. Could still be some hope for him. :)

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Previous to my reading of AS, I believed that Jefferson and others that he worked with in crafting what they did were Christian or at least built everything under a "JudeoChristian" ideology.

This is alarming. Basically it is a Christian "Big Lie" that the Founding Fathers were Christians, and it sounds like you were given no reason to disbelieve it up until now. As a caveat, the vast majority of them were not atheists, either; they had a conception of a god who created the universe, complete with lifeforms (this was pre-Darwin, and life arising spontaneously and then evolving was "absurd"), and then sat back and did nothing--a huge difference from the constantly meddling and hectoring Xian god. This is known as deism and although it certainly has its problems, Deists tend to make tolerable neighbors, more so than the modern typical leftist atheist.

Thomas Jefferson-definitely a deist.

George Washington-Never really said anything, but rarely attended church, didn't take communion when he did, and refused to have a cleric at his deathbed.

Governeur Morris-Deist

Madison-leaned unitarian

Ethan Allen-Referred to Xianity as a "superstition"

Thomas Paine-Deist

John Adams-Apparently a believer of some sort, but not an Xian

The only really famous founding father I can identify as a Christian was Patrick Henry ("Give me liberty or give me death!")

Lincoln, though not a founding father, was apparently a Deist (at most).

Far from being a Christian nation, our first four presidents were apparently *not* Christian, and neither was the one who saved the Union during the civil war. Well that makes three out of the five presidents depicted on our coinage, the same three are depicted on the 1, 2, and 5 dollar bills. Unfortunately I don't know anything about Hamilton or Andrew Jackson--the book I am using as my source would undoubtedly have claimed them as non-Christians, though, if there were evidence for it.

PS I get irritated when I see those currently popular paintings of Washington praying. One could paint Osama Bin Laden praying, that would not make him a Christian.

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I tuned into a Christian radio station the other night and, sure enough, not 5 minutes into the broadcast there were several clerics calling for nationalization of healthcare in the name of Jesus. This does not bode well for the average Tea Party protestor, who appears to be part of the religious right. At least Beck put Dr. Brook on the air, I hope he gets more chances to be heard by the Tea Party crowd.

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Lincoln, though not a founding father, was apparently a Deist (at most).

Far from being a Christian nation, our first four presidents were apparently *not* Christian, and neither was the one who saved the Union during the civil war. Well that makes three out of the five presidents depicted on our coinage, the same three are depicted on the 1, 2, and 5 dollar bills. Unfortunately I don't know anything about Hamilton or Andrew Jackson--the book I am using as my source would undoubtedly have claimed them as non-Christians, though, if there were evidence for it.

PS I get irritated when I see those currently popular paintings of Washington praying. One could paint Osama Bin Laden praying, that would not make him a Christian.

Lincoln, according to his own wife, was a devout believer in the message and divinity of Christ.

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That was a bit off putting to me. The whole slam against "atheists" and "Darwinism" was pathetic. These people don't know what the problem is. We saw here two worlds, one pointing back to the Dark Ages and one pointing toward a new and better Enlightenment. I know which one I'm choosing.

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This is alarming. Basically it is a Christian "Big Lie" that the Founding Fathers were Christians, and it sounds like you were given no reason to disbelieve it up until now. As a caveat, the vast majority of them were not atheists, either; they had a conception of a god who created the universe, complete with lifeforms (this was pre-Darwin, and life arising spontaneously and then evolving was "absurd"), and then sat back and did nothing--a huge difference from the constantly meddling and hectoring Xian god. This is known as deism and although it certainly has its problems, Deists tend to make tolerable neighbors, more so than the modern typical leftist atheist.

I think it was more of not looking at the facts for what they were.

I think the Founding Fathers recognized that God had given them individual freedom to make choices, mistakes, work, and so on. That didn't come from the king or minister on High, but through individual men.

Ultimately, even the religious recognize that the non religious have individual rights too. Government must be framed in a context that is available to all individuals, hence the reason how I got to where I am now with Objectivism.

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This does not bode well for the average Tea Party protestor, who appears to be part of the religious right.

Ok, what is the "average Tea Party protester"? :lol:

Yes, there are some that have a previous religious background, but I personally cannot say that there's an average TP protester that would necessarily be religious right. Most were pretty apolitical. I think that's where the surprise is for the established parties: so many that are motivated and voicing displeasure are from that part of the population that neither side has been able to tap with any effectivity. Truly independent?

But, yes, there seems to be a lot of religious talkers that get to speak for the "average" folks involved. And that can be a problem.

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Ok, what is the "average Tea Party protester"? :blink:

I can't begin to describe with total certainty every aspect of the average TPP, but the one judgement I made was that the average one was part of the religious right. I think that's a fair and accurate statement based on the evidence.

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I can't begin to describe with total certainty every aspect of the average TPP, but the one judgement I made was that the average one was part of the religious right. I think that's a fair and accurate statement based on the evidence.

I don't think that's accurate. I went to a Tea Party protest back in April. Less than half there considered themselves Republicans, the rest were Independent or Libertarian-leaning. Most of the signs I saw were in reference to ending the federal reserve, and a lot of the other signs were about both parties being corrupt. I didn't see anything that indicated a religious motivation. Most people were there because they wanted the government to stop taking their money.

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I don't think that's accurate. I went to a Tea Party protest back in April. Less than half there considered themselves Republicans, the rest were Independent or Libertarian-leaning. Most of the signs I saw were in reference to ending the federal reserve, and a lot of the other signs were about both parties being corrupt. I didn't see anything that indicated a religious motivation. Most people were there because they wanted the government to stop taking their money.

The average TPP (I'm one of them) is opposed to Big Government - that's it in a nutshell.

The anger has brewed over due to the "straws that broke the camel's back" - stimulus and bailouts of Bush and then Obama and now an attempt to socialize healthcare. But the issues run the gamut from 1st amendment to 2nd amendment to 9/th and 10th amendment to Ending the Fed and the culture of debt to taxes and more.

But the underlying principle of ALL of it is we are tired of Big Government. The country has been on a socialist slide since 1913, the start of the Fed and the IRS. Continuing with the New Deal, Welfare, Social Security, etc. And then a more pronounced socialist slide at the end of Reagan's presidency with both Bushes and Clinton. And now a terrible lurch over the edge with Bushes first Stimulus and now Obama.

ers is correct in that it is largely non-partisan, though most, like me, are surely more conservative. Surely there are many religious people involved who interject God into their arguments, largely 1st amendment related. But there are equally as many or more, like me, who are not religious and simply oppose big government on many issues. Bottom line is opposition to Big Government.

You want to know what the TPP's are all about. Here's a 10 minute speech by an 11-year kid given at a side rally in Washington. (I think it's likely he had some adult help writing his speech.) But note how many times he mentioned religion (never) and how often he mentioned 'socialism' or Big Government (constantly).

Big GovernmentBig GovernmentBig GovernmentBig GovernmentBig GovernmentBig GovernmentBig GovernmentBig GovernmentBig GovernmentBig Government

Edited by PatriotResistance
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The average TPP (I'm one of them) is opposed to Big Government - that's it in a nutshell.

Agreed.

Was neat to see all the Rand and Galt stuff at the Tea Party I was at. Allowed me to meet some like minded individuals that I didn't think were out there.

Going to a party this Saturday. Very curious how big it might be.

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