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Boston Marathon Explosions

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Oh okay. No one here comments on the fact that federal agents, militarized local police, and military police basically invaded the town and forced everyone under house arrest right before out eyes, as the democratic flag-waving mob applauds on, and as China and the rest of the world are watching. Oh but we're arguing over whether it is appropriately Objectivist to be against all Musilms. Geez.

 

Photos of the "manhunt":

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2311443/Boston-bomber-caught-Dzhokhar-Tsarnaev-captured-ALIVE-hiding-inside-BOAT.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/photography/2013/04/boston_marathon_boming_standoff_photos_of_dzhokhar_tsarnaev_from_watertown.html

 

Edited by 2046
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Am I the only one who is really uncomfortable with how quickly and how completely they have taken complete control of this area, with their unprecedented "lockdown"? Why is the news ok with this happe

I think this is much worse. An entire city is shut down -- don't you think an entire city could manage to apprehend a 19-year-old kid with homemade explosives? No one has a nuclear bomb here. I think

Oh okay. No one here comments on the fact that federal agents, militarized local police, and military police basically invaded the town and forced everyone under house arrest right before out eyes, as

Oh okay. No one here comments on the fact that federal agents, militarized local police, and military police basically invaded the town and forced everyone under house arrest right before out eyes, as the democratic flag-waving mob applauds on, and as China and the rest of the world are watching.

Actually JASKN raised the same point a few posts ago.

The shut-down of Boston was almost certainly over-the-top, but I don't see how you can characterize the police presence as an "invasion".

Here's a counter-point, though.

Edited by softwareNerd
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Oh okay. No one here comments on the fact that federal agents, militarized local police, and military police basically invaded the town and forced everyone under house arrest right before out eyes, as the democratic flag-waving mob applauds on, and as China and the rest of the world are watching. Oh but we're arguing over whether it is appropriately Objectivist to be against all Musilms. Geez.

 

Good point, 2046! To what extent does the government of Boston have the power to declare martial law or order a curfew? That seems very anti-American and unconstitutional to me. Did the legislature even vote on it? Or did the mayor or police chief just instantly, casually grant themselves dictatorial powers while the docile, servile sheeple of Boston submissively went along?

 

I'm far more afraid of a fascist American government, which uses the excuse of "fighting terrorism" to install tyranny, than I am of the jihadis themselves. I think that's the proper, rational, Objectivist position.

Edited by Garshasp
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Martial law has been declared in the USA many, many times. It was not, however, declared in Boston or its environs. Stay grounded.

So if they impose a sort of-martial law (imposition of house arrest, curfew, warrantless house-to-house raids, military police checkpoints, warrantless stops) but just call it something else intead, oh well then don't criticize, it's not martial law, silly! After all, we didn't declare it, we ourselves called it something else. Well okay then, hoorah police state! Get away from the window! Back inside your homes, peons!

 

watertown-gun-aimed-at-photogrphaer-9234

 

Edited by 2046
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A humvee in the streets! It must be martial law!

 

Just because you see a soldier doesn't mean it is just like martial law and that everyone else is in denial. Use words and proof, not images alone. That video says "At gunpoint", but it looks like exaggeration to me. Someone had a gun, but were they threatened to be shot? I need details, not pictures like that!

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A humvee in the streets! It must be martial law!

 

Just because you see a soldier doesn't mean it is just like martial law and that everyone else is in denial. Use words and proof, not images alone. That video says "At gunpoint", but it looks like exaggeration to me. Someone had a gun, but were they threatened to be shot? I need details, not pictures like that!

Yeah dawg, cause obviously my problem was limited to the mere presence of a humvee in the streets... not imposition of house arrest, curfew, warrantless house-to-house raids, military police checkpoints, warrantless stops or any of the other words I used to convey my thoughts? (Use words? Images alone? Uh what, can you not read?)

 

And what do you mean by "at gunpoint" being "an exaggeration? They have guns and are pointing them. The picture of the humvee in the street actually shows a gun being pointed at the guy in the window of his house. what else does "at gunpoint" mean?

Edited by 2046
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Yeah dawg, cause obviously my problem was limited to the mere presence of a humvee in the streets... not imposition of house arrest, curfew, warrantless house-to-house raids, military police checkpoints, warrantless stops or any of the other words I used to convey my thoughts? (Use words? Images alone? Uh what, can you not read?)

Was anyone forced out of their house with threats of being shot? Or did people with guns politely request citizens leave their house for their own safety? It's easy to make "at gunpoint" sound sinister when someone probably misremembered a detail of how a gun was held (misremebering happens a lot). I probably should've said use words with evidence to back up your claim rather than post a very large picture was apparently supposed to be evidence, which it isn't. Raids - whose house? Military checkpoints - where and how was it set up? I' m pretty sure martial law is A LOT more severe than anything that happened in Boston.

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Was anyone forced out of their house with threats of being shot? Or did people with guns politely request citizens leave their house for their own safety? It's easy to make "at gunpoint" sound sinister when someone probably misremembered a detail of how a gun was held (misremebering happens a lot). I probably should've said use words with evidence to back up your claim rather than post a very large picture was apparently supposed to be evidence, which it isn't. Raids - whose house? Military checkpoints - where and how was it set up? I' m pretty sure martial law is A LOT more severe than anything that happened in Boston.

Well I just don't understand the nature of your objection. What would constitute evidence to you? What would that even look like? Obviously I can't teleport you to Boston, going back in time, and show you exact houses. I figured I could just make assertions with words, but that's probably not very good evidence. So instead I post tons of pictures and news footage and home camera footage figuring that would be pretty good evidence. But I'm ridiculed sarcastically and told to "use words."

 

Was there house arrest? People were ordered to stay in their homes, businesses ordered to close. So check.

Was there curfew? As per the above, check.

Warrantless house to house raids? See videos, check.

Warrantless stops? See videos, check.

Military police checkpoints? Again, see articles and pictures previously posted. Check.

 

 

 

So the argument, in syllogism form, goes like this;

 

Major: The above points constitute a kind of martial law.

Minor: Those things were present in sections of Boston on April 19, 2013.

Conclusion: Therefore a kind of martial law was present in Boston on April 19, 2013.

 

Now the real question is why there seems to be a certain strain within the "objectivist movement" which is barely distinguishable from mainstream conservative Republicans and neocons, which takes a "go get em" type attitude to things like the imposition of police state and interventionist foreign policy measures, and which will find any excuse possible to parse words ("people with guns politely request citizens leave their house for their own safety" LOL are you fucking kidding me?) and split hairs to apologize for an ugly act of statism, people being dragged our of their houses and accosted for their papers. Funny statist objectivists get upset when people complain about a massive swat team and military police invasion of a whole neighborhood and find some way to justify it like "it could be worse if it was real martial law."

 

560095_513113298748055_258135038_n.jpg

Edited by 2046
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Was there house arrest? People were ordered to stay in their homes, businesses ordered to close. So check.

Was there curfew? As per the above, check.

Warrantless house to house raids? See videos, check.

Warrantless stops? See videos, check.

Military police checkpoints? Again, see articles and pictures previously posted. Check.

I can't emphasize this enough: most of your claims are false. Those orders weren't given, and those military checkpoints didn't exist. You're either making them up, or are irrational enough to just believe whoever made them up.

The fact that you're using material from Infowars suggests it's the latter.

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Ah.  Now I know where this comes from.

I've heard countless (politically correct, multicultural, diverse, inclusive, sensitive, etc.) news reporters today say "We still don't know what their motivation is," or else, "We have absolutely no idea why they did this."

 

Are you fucking kidding me?

 

They're Muslims! They're jihadis! Their Islamic philosophy compels them to wage continuous holy war (jihad) on the whole world -- to kill or enslave everyone!

 

It makes not a jot of difference whether or not the individual muzzies think the U.S. supports Israel too much, or fails to aid Chechnya enough against Russia, or is improperly working against the Syrian dictatorship, or isn't doing enough to overthrow the Syrian dictatorship, etc. The "reason" for the various Islamic atrocities is absolutely irrelevant. The Muslim response to all of these alleged American failures is always the same: jihad!  

 

To quote myself:

 

1: He blames Islam (correctly) for the acts of Jihadis, and then proceeds to disregard "individual muzzies" as irrelevant.  If it weren't for all of those individuals fighting for Alleh there would be peace in the middle-east; individuals, and all of their interactions, are the ONLY things that matter.

2: The reasoning behind their hatred for America is key.  They hate the good for being good and without that knowledge, there is no possible way to understand them.

(Understanding them is key to fixing the problem; not as a pacifistic "peace, love and understanding" but as in "know thy enemy")

 

I do think you're on the right track and, for the most part, correct.  But it is possible to understand them and why they act thusly.

The "reason" for all of these Muslim atrocities is completely relevant- and horrifying.

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I'm far more afraid of a fascist American government, which uses the excuse of "fighting terrorism" to install tyranny, than I am of the jihadis themselves. I think that's the proper, rational, Objectivist position.

Tough one; that's like trying to decide between Herpes and HIV.

But ultimately, I guess, Jihadis want all of us dead while the government only wants us mostly-dead.  It's very easy to underestimate their danger because the majority of their power is so far from us.

 

 

That video says "At gunpoint", but it looks like exaggeration to me. Someone had a gun, but were they threatened to be shot?

Everything that the government does is at hypothetical gunpoint.

In this case they were justified.  But there is a fine distinction between protection and oppression and our government is testing its boundaries.

Edited by Harrison Danneskjold
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