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Morality of visiting Strip Clubs

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He is writing a novel and needs to find out what goes on in there.

That's the only good reason out of the ones you've listed (although the taste of that novel is questionable if it needs details about strip clubs to be that intricate). I would argue the other ones are not a good way to achieve the intended effects, but that is an argument for another day. In other words, while those other activities are not cheating, as such, they are not good ideas, either.

Other than nonsense like that, however, going to strip clubs is oogling naked women, and is most certainly cheating on a relationship.

For some looking at naked people is not the same as having sex with them.

No, but it is different in degree, not kind. It is still infidelity.

my reply works for those in or out of relationships.

No, it doesn't. For those in relationships, it is most certainly cheating. I can't even begin to fathom why you or anyone else would think it isn't.

I feel like I am arguing that the sky is blue here.

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I can not think of any good reason for an Objectivist to go to a strip club.

Well, an Objectivist policeman could go to a strip club as part of his job (e.g. when pursuing criminals).

But I cannot think of any good reason for me to go to a strip club. :D

It's a perfectly morally acceptable transaction--- they have nice boobs, you have a desire to see nice boobs. You pay, and get to see nice boobs. Both parties walk away from the transaction having benefitted. How this is immoral is beyond any kind of logical comprehension.

Same as prostitution-- the reason it is a 'victimless crime' is because both parties are consenting. The hooker provides the nookie, and the john provides the money. Supply, demand. Transaction made, both parties walk away having benefitted.

Mutual benefit is not all there is to morality. The transaction should be legal if all parties involved consent and benefit, but not everything that is legal is moral.

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Other than nonsense like that, however, going to strip clubs is oogling naked women, and is most certainly cheating on a relationship.

No, but it is different in degree, not kind. It is still infidelity.

No, it doesn't. For those in relationships, it is most certainly cheating.

From your standpoint, then, should someone at the beach lose their top, and you happen to see it, then you're "cheating" and an infidel to your mate.

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The idea that it is a 'sin' to look at another woman and think a sexual thought comes streight from the christian, new testament bible. For those that say looking at a naked woman is 'cheating' I would like you to provide your reasons. It would seem by this logic that simply 'looking' at another female that was sexually attractive would be 'cheating', and that is ridiculous no matter if it is a strip club or not.

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Is there a difference between visiting a sleazy lapdancing club and visiting a place where they have skilled erotic dancers? Lots of forms of dancing evoke emotions, and I don't see anything wrong with a beautiful woman showing her body. It seems very Victorian to say that looking at another persons naked body is wrong when all parties are willing.

EDIT: Didn't see your post before I added my own Russ :D

Edited by Jingles
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Because the issue has been raised here, I will address the issue of strip clubs for those not in relationships. For those not in relationships, I see nothing wrong with going to strip clubs per se.

For those of you who have never been, I will share with you my experiences. I have been to a few different strip clubs in Nebraska, one in Kansas City, and one in Montreal. Every one has been largely the same. There are a bunch of tables. People sit around and watch the dancers on stage. The dancers walk around and talk to customers and ask if they want private dances.

The private dances vary. In the U.S. clubs I've been to, dancers may contact the customers (except for genitals), but customers are emphatically NOT permitted to touch the dancers. In the Montreal club I went to, customers could touch anything but the pubic area.

I got a private dance on my first couple strip club ventures, but have not since then. They don't do anything for me. I do not go into strip clubs at all to become aroused. There's nothing arousing to me about a total stranger dancing for money. I just go to look at naked girls, like real, live sculptures.

I was shocked in Montreal to learn of the level of contact permitted. I will pay to watch a girl dance, but I will not pay to touch her. The point of touching is to display affection, and hiring someone to give affection to is just silly.

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The idea that it is a 'sin' to look at another woman and think a sexual thought comes streight from the christian, new testament bible.

That's a blatant straw man. Nowhere did anyone here say that bodies are sinful or filthy (although strippers likely aren't the height of clenliness...). It has been said that showing a prurient sexual interest in women other than one's wife/girlfriend is cheating on her. This is common sense.

It seems very Victorian to say that looking at another persons naked body is wrong when all parties are willing.

But that's just it: all parties are NOT willing; the man's wife/girlfriend in most certainly not willing!

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In the words of Al Bandy: There is nothing more relaxing than watching plastically-surgicaled breasts sway to odd music while drinking a beer. (or was it "sway oddly to bad music"?)

Truly, a deep aesthetic and artistic experience.

Edited by ifatart
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One good reason why an Objectivist should not go to a strip club in the pursuit of sexual pleasure is that strippers will just tease him. He will get a better value at a massage parlor where he can get a good erotic bath, a relaxing rub down, and a happy ending for about the same money he would have spent on strippers.

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One good reason why an Objectivist should not go to a strip club in the pursuit of sexual pleasure is that strippers will just tease him. He will get a better value at a massage parlor where he can get a good erotic bath, a relaxing rub down, and a happy ending for about the same money he would have spent on strippers.

I'm RationalBiker and I've been to a strip club. Judge me morally if you need to. :)

Your statement is true IF the value sought is to actually be "sexually stimulated" in the end. As a person who has (in the distant past) gone with friends to a strip club, our goal by the end of the night was neither to get "laid" nor to go home and manually pleasure ourselves afterwards. Our goal was to go out and put back a few beers, enjoy the sights and then go eat after a long day of work, then just go to bed. This didn't require any of us to go to bed "frustrated". For a few folks, a strip club is just another bar, except with strippers. The particular club we went was also potentially cheaper in the long run as well. You paid a 10 dollar cover and BYOB to the club. Paying for drinks in a bar can be quite expensive.

\\

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(although strippers likely aren't the height of clenliness...).

You'd be well served to avoid this kind of talk. It's simply ridiculous. There are, no doubt, icky strippers. But by and large, they do very well taking care of their bodies. If you're going to be up close and personal with a customer, you're going to do better financially if you are clean.

To everyone: If you have not been to a strip club, or you don't know any strippers, you're better off informing yourself before you conclude anything. I have been to several clubs myself, I have friends who have been to several, and I am friends with some strippers. For the most part, they are not these big whorish make-out parties that many people seem to think they are. Most of the girls don't do crazy freaky sex stuff with anybody and everybody. Most of them are no more or less horny than the general population.

If you think that strip club = brothel, and/or that stripper = whore, you are very much mistaken. If you want to say that stripper is a bad life decision, you can make the argument. If you want to say that strip clubs are bad, go ahead and make the argument. I'm interested. But before you make the argument, get the facts straight. You will make yourself look silly with wholly uninformed assumptions.

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The particular club we went was also potentially cheaper in the long run as well. You paid a 10 dollar cover and BYOB to the club. Paying for drinks in a bar can be quite expensive.

I know of a great strip club in Florida where affluent men and women go to dine. It is not cheap but the dry-aged steaks are the best around. Young and middle-aged guys belly-up to the raised dance floor while couples of all ages dine at nearby linen covered tables. Beautiful young naked dancers, silk-suited businessmen, and white haired ladies all in the same room—it’s a very interesting contrast (as sinful as it may be).

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But that's just it: all parties are NOT willing; the man's wife/girlfriend in most certainly not willing!

Discounting what it may or may not say about their relationship, not all wives necessarily object to their husbands viewing other women naked. That may not be the kind of woman or relationship you would wish to be in, but there are people in that kind of relationship.

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Discounting what it may or may not say about their relationship, not all wives necessarily object to their husbands viewing other women naked. That may not be the kind of woman or relationship you would wish to be in, but there are people in that kind of relationship.

I suppose all I'll say is that many women consider it cheating and they are most certainly not in any way mistaken in thinking this.

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That's a blatant straw man. Nowhere did anyone here say that bodies are sinful or filthy (although strippers likely aren't the height of clenliness...). It has been said that showing a prurient sexual interest in women other than one's wife/girlfriend is cheating on her. This is common sense.

But that's just it: all parties are NOT willing; the man's wife/girlfriend in most certainly not willing!

There is no straw man here. According to the new testament, having a lustful thought for another woman is the act of commiting adultery. I see no difference between this and your statement. It is not the thought that constitutes 'cheating', but the physical action, and I have to look at your statements with skepticism if you believe that having a sexual thought about another is cheating or wrong; or that you do not do it--to see a beautiful woman on the street, and not think 'sexual' seems quite prudish to me. It doesn't matter if one is in a relationship or not.

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It is not the thought that constitutes 'cheating', but the physical action

No, it is very much the conscious choices you make. Cheating on someone is first about conscious choice long before it is about physical action. A man who falls in love with another woman is cheating on his wife, even if he never touches her.

Perhaps what is confusing you is the distinction between subconscious reactions and conscious choices. Only the latter can be considered cheating.

to see a beautiful woman on the street, and not think 'sexual' seems quite prudish to me. It doesn't matter if one is in a relationship or not.

You'd be surprised how different the subconscious reactions of a happily married man are to a single fellow (I assume you are the latter). Yes, a happily married man is not blind and he sees the same woman, with the same beauty... but it just isn't reacted to in the same way. He just isn't interested, as such.

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No, it is very much the conscious choices you make. Cheating on someone is first about conscious choice long before it is about physical action. A man who falls in love with another woman is cheating on his wife, even if he never touches her.

Perhaps what is confusing you is the distinction between subconscious reactions and conscious choices. Only the latter can be considered cheating.

You'd be surprised how different the subconscious reactions of a happily married man are to a single fellow (I assume you are the latter). Yes, a happily married man is not blind and he sees the same woman, with the same beauty... but it just isn't reacted to in the same way. He just isn't interested, as such.

I don't think anyone has brought up the subject of love yet; it's not what I was talking about. Usually when I look at a woman I am very conscious about my thoughts, and their direction.

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I suppose all I'll say is that many women consider it cheating and they are most certainly not in any way mistaken in thinking this.

Please note my disagreement. I don't think there is anything certain about that.

I have to look at your statements with skepticism if you believe that having a sexual thought about another is cheating or wrong; or that you do not do it--to see a beautiful woman on the street, and not think 'sexual' seems quite prudish to me. It doesn't matter if one is in a relationship or not.

(My bold emphasis)

Stick to arguing the issue and reserve your comments about the person to yourself. You have no evidence and this is not the proper place to question what Inspector or anyone would or wouldn't do. Do not make this personal.

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